BB and Mankins have a "nice talk"

[jays52]

Fair enough. I don't really watch enough non-Patriots games to comment, but seems legit from what I know.

Could you expound a bit on the primacy of the LG on NE's offense?

Absolutely. As the line is presently constituted they are heavily screen left. This mandates a left guard who can get in space and create a seal on pursuing backers and safeties. It's also well known that Light's main vulnerability is speed to his outside shoulder. Teams know how deep Light has to get to reach these guys, and how hard he has to drive to do so. This opens up the left b gap to blitzes or crashes. The LG has to be able to chip the center's man then get lateral to protect the area vacated by the outside rush. Other times, he'll have to pass stunts and recognize delayed pressures. In the directional run game their two best blockers are Mankins and Vollmer. How do you combine the two? Yup, gotta pull Mankins. Watch their directional plays. Almost exclusively behind Mankins. They also don't have a good pilemoving guard on this team other than Mankins. Everytime they need a couple if tough yards they get downhill behind Mankins. Can't do that with Connoly nor Kaczur. Mankins in this offense is like Polamolu in the Steelers' defense. Everything flows through him.

 

[Deus Irae]

Absolutely. As the line is presently constituted they are heavily screen left. This mandates a left guard who can get in space and create a seal on pursuing backers and safeties. It's also well known that Light's main vulnerability is speed to his outside shoulder. Teams know how deep Light has to get to reach these guys, and how hard he has to drive to do so. This opens up the left b gap to blitzes or crashes. The LG has to be able to chip the center's man then get lateral to protect the area vacated by the outside rush. Other times, he'll have to pass stunts and recognize delayed pressures. In the directional run game their two best blockers are Mankins and Vollmer. How do you combine the two? Yup, gotta pull Mankins. Watch their directional plays. Almost exclusively behind Mankins. They also don't have a good pilemoving guard on this team other than Mankins. Everytime they need a couple if tough yards they get downhill behind Mankins. Can't do that with Connoly nor Kaczur. Mankins in this offense is like Polamolu in the Steelers' defense. Everything flows through him.

Just as an aside here, this is actually a radical departure from where the team used to be, as recently as two seasons ago, and even last year to some degree. When Neal was (relatively) reliable with his health, and Kaczur was the RT, this was a team that did a lot of its pulling with Neal instead of Mankins. Putting a road grader like Vollmer at RT, along with having very 'mediocre' replacements for Neal, has resulted in the team becoming a lot more right side run oriented.

It's one of the reasons that the idea of having to replace both guards is so distasteful to me.

 

[JackBauer]

Absolutely. As the line is presently constituted they are heavily screen left. This mandates a left guard who can get in space and create a seal on pursuing backers and safeties. It's also well known that Light's main vulnerability is speed to his outside shoulder. Teams know how deep Light has to get to reach these guys, and how hard he has to drive to do so. This opens up the left b gap to blitzes or crashes. The LG has to be able to chip the center's man then get lateral to protect the area vacated by the outside rush. Other times, he'll have to pass stunts and recognize delayed pressures. In the directional run game their two best blockers are Mankins and Vollmer. How do you combine the two? Yup, gotta pull Mankins. Watch their directional plays. Almost exclusively behind Mankins. They also don't have a good pilemoving guard on this team other than Mankins. Everytime they need a couple if tough yards they get downhill behind Mankins. Can't do that with Connoly nor Kaczur. Mankins in this offense is like Polamolu in the Steelers' defense. Everything flows through him.

Good stuff, thanks much.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I guess the sarcasm was totally missed.

Of course, we had a GREAT season under Cassell at 11-5.

Yep. I missed it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So if you allow Light and Mankins to leave, are you proposing to upgrade the entire offensive line aside from Vollmer?

Good question, Tippett and I sure as heck don't know the right answer.

Losing Mankins would be a tough blow, but as long as other positions along the line were fortified via FA or the draft, I think the team would be fine. In order to bide time and allow the line to gel and protect TB, the offense would need to revert back to a more conservative approach (running the ball, 3 step drops, screens, swing passes, etc.). The 2003 and 2004 teams had substantial line changes on the right side and still did ok so there is a precedent.

To answer you question directly, I still don't think you break the bank for Mankins. You pay Light a short-term deal, see whats there for center and RG in the draft and FA and act accordingly. I do think you need to be aggressive at RG as Connolly is not the answer. I'm irrationally sour on Koppen as I believe that in order to run the ball with more authority, you need a bigger player at that position.

My .02$

 

[Tasco]

I'm no expert, so I'm not really able to really judge objectively Connollys performance this year. How did he do?
And most importantly: were there any differences in his play as RG & LG? Is he purely a back-up or can he be an average starter?

 

[DaBruinz]

Mankins is one of the best O-linemen in the league currently. And there is no question that this team is better with Mankins on it than without him on it.

But that isn't the question. The question is whether or not the Pats can afford to pay him a significant chunk of cash and still have money to improve the team in other areas of need. Let's remember that Koppen was mediocre all season. Connolly was better at RG than LG. They need to replace Neal since he's just injured way too much and he's talking about retirement again.

The owners want a 10-20% reduction in the salary cap. That is 13-28 Million. That would leave the cap somewhere between $104 and $119 million. I think the Pats only have like $86 million committed for next season. So, even with signing Mankins, they would have a lot of money to use. And the reality is that, in the league, paying a top guard some 7-8 million IS the going rate.

Now, the Pats can franchise Mankins with the intent of trading him. But, as others have mentioned, no one is likely to give the Pats 2 first round picks. Heck, getting a 1st and 2nd might be iffy. However, I could easily see Rex Ryan doing so because it improves them and weakens us, a division rival. And Rex has shown he's about winning NOW.

I believe that it's in the best interest of the Pats to get a long term deal done with Mankins that pays him like a Top 2 guard. Letting him walk just sets the team back.

 

[Lamanai]

The owners want a 10-20% reduction in the salary cap. That is 13-28 Million. That would leave the cap somewhere between $104 and $119 million.

That may be what the owners want, but what they agree on will likely be higher. I have seen other estimates saying $140 million +. (I hope those are unrealistically high.) Truth is, nobody knows what the cap will be at this point. But like you say, the Pats are poised to have the space available to make some FA moves at virtually any level. I think a lower cap benefits the Pats greatly, at the expense of the Jets. I believe the Jets are at about $120 million *before* resigning any of their FA.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Now, the Pats can franchise Mankins with the intent of trading him. But, as others have mentioned, no one is likely to give the Pats 2 first round picks. Heck, getting a 1st and 2nd might be iffy. However, I could easily see Rex Ryan doing so because it improves them and weakens us, a division rival. And Rex has shown he's about winning NOW.

Ryan would cough up two firsts? There's no way the Pats would trade him to the JEST. . . .

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ryan would cough up two firsts? There's no way the Pats would trade him to the JEST. . . .

Yep. Better chance of it being 74 degrees and sunny in Boston tomorrow.

 

[shmessy]

No one player is essential. What is your point?

Last year, we had hundreds of posts that discussed how we would move forward if we didn't retain Wilfork long-term.

You ae certainly free to believe that it will be no big deal if we lose Mankins and Light. My guess is that Brady would strongly disagree with your opinion.

But yes, if Mankins moves on, the team will move on. But make no mistake, the difference between Mankins and say Connolly at LG is enormous. Perhaps the difference is not the difference between Brady and Cassell. As I recall, that caused us to end up with an aweful 11-5 season.

Who says Connolly is the only option?

 

[shmessy]

The "contrarian" nonsense is idiotic of you, and you probably don't even understand the definition, given how you're attempting to use it here. Using Smessy's logic, Brady and Wilfork should never have been re-signed. Both have played in the last 3 Patriots playoff losses. Over the course of the last two playoff games, Mankins has been the best player of the three, and Brady's been the worst of the group. Hell, Brady has only one game with a passer rating of 90 or above in his last 6 playoff games.

Using Smessy's logic, it's time to get rid of the QB.

That's typical Deus Irae baloney.

1) Both Brady and Wilfork wanted to stay in New England.

2) Neither Brady nor Wilfork are components of a 5 person line.

3) While there certainly IS a drop-off in going from Mankins to a solid B LG, the dropoff is NOWHERE NEAR the the drop-off in going from an elite 3-4 NG or QB.

.......but of course, in your simple world, it's all the same.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ryan would cough up two firsts? There's no way the Pats would trade him to the JEST. . . .

The Pats wouldn't have a choice if Mankins signs a contract with the Jets and the Pats are due compensation.

And the Pats may not match an offer by the Jets..

 

[shmessy]

I was demonstrating the problem with Smessy's logic. The fatal flaw in his argument was obvious.

.....obvious to anyone who equates the relative value of a 3-4 NT or a QB to a LG.

 

[Deus Irae]

.....obvious to anyone who equates the relative value of a 3-4 NT or a QB to a LG.

Obvious to anyone who can grasp logic. It's not my fault your argument was lousy.

 

[shmessy]

Obvious to anyone who can grasp logic. It's not my fault your argument was lousy.

Great Deus, so going from Brady to a solid B QB and from Wilfork to a solid B 3-4 NT is equivalent to the Mankins situation.

Got it. Thanks, that's brilliant.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The Pats wouldn't have a choice if Mankins signs a contract with the Jets and the Pats are due compensation.

And the Pats may not match an offer by the Jets..

So you're saying Ryan would be willing to cough up the two firsts, plus whatever it would cost to get Mankins to sign there (I can't see him signing a vet minimum contract, after all)?

 

[part-timer]

So you're saying Ryan would be willing to cough up the two firsts, plus whatever it would cost to get Mankins to sign there (I can't see him signing a vet minimum contract, after all)?

The Jest's current cap no. is over 118 mil. with 19 Free Agents to deal with yet. So, can you say Cap Hell in 2011. The start of the end.

 

[shmessy]

So you're saying Ryan would be willing to cough up the two firsts, plus whatever it would cost to get Mankins to sign there (I can't see him signing a vet minimum contract, after all)?

If Rex did that, I'd be doing cartwheels up and down the street!

 

[DaBruinz]

The Jest's current cap no. is over 118 mil. with 19 Free Agents to deal with yet. So, can you say Cap Hell in 2011. The start of the end.

First of all, Cap hell is such an over-used term. Do you even understand what it really means? It was used as a term for teams who were actually over the salary cap and would have to CUT good players to get under it. The Redskins proved not to long ago that it's fairly easy to shed $30 million in "salary cap" and still put a team on the field. Especially when the players they cut weren't playing well to begin with. There is also plenty of contracts that can be re-done to free up money.

So, you'll have to forgive me if I think you are blowing their situation way out of proportion.

Yes. If Rexy wanted to give a big F-U to the Pats, he could sign Mankins to a deal and fork over the two 1st round picks.