BB and Mankins have a "nice talk"

[DEVIOUS 1]

Using your logic, the team should never have re-signed Brady or Wilfork.

Even our resident contrarian has to admit there is a huge difference in replacing a franchise QB, and franchise NT in a 3-4 defense, compared to a franchise LG.

I understand your dug in on your Mankins stance, and I would prefer to keep him as well. But he's not essential to the teams success.

 

[mgteich]

No one player is essential. What is your point?

Last year, we had hundreds of posts that discussed how we would move forward if we didn't retain Wilfork long-term.

You ae certainly free to believe that it will be no big deal if we lose Mankins and Light. My guess is that Brady would strongly disagree with your opinion.

But yes, if Mankins moves on, the team will move on. But make no mistake, the difference between Mankins and say Connolly at LG is enormous. Perhaps the difference is not the difference between Brady and Cassell. As I recall, that caused us to end up with an aweful 11-5 season.

Even our resident contrarian has to admit there is a huge difference in replacing a franchise QB, and franchise NT in a 3-4 defense, compared to a franchise LG.

I understand your dug in on your Mankins stance, and I would prefer to keep him as well. But he's not essential to the teams success.

 

[Deus Irae]

Even our resident contrarian has to admit there is a huge difference in replacing a franchise QB, and franchise NT in a 3-4 defense, compared to a franchise LG.

I understand your dug in on your Mankins stance, and I would prefer to keep him as well. But he's not essential to the teams success.

The "contrarian" nonsense is idiotic of you, and you probably don't even understand the definition, given how you're attempting to use it here. Using Smessy's logic, Brady and Wilfork should never have been re-signed. Both have played in the last 3 Patriots playoff losses. Over the course of the last two playoff games, Mankins has been the best player of the three, and Brady's been the worst of the group. Hell, Brady has only one game with a passer rating of 90 or above in his last 6 playoff games.

Using Smessy's logic, it's time to get rid of the QB.

 

[ATippett56]

But yes, if Mankins moves on, the team will move on. But make no mistake, the difference between Mankins and say Connolly at LG is enormous. Perhaps the difference is not the difference between Brady and Cassell. As I recall, that caused us to end up with an aweful 11-5 season.

That depends on the team's expectations. If the Patriots expectations are an 11-5 regular season with a one and done for the playoffs, then Logan Mankins is expendable. According to Pro Football Weekly, the sacks allowed by Matt Light increased from 2 to 10 from the 2009 to 2010 NFL Season.

ProFootballWeekly.com - Matt Light

How much of the sack increase was due to Dan Connolly playing left guard in Logan Mankins absence or the deterioration of Matt Light's play is subject for debate. However, without Matt Light and Logan Mankins on the left side of the offensive line, the 2011 NFL Draft priorities for the New England Patriots significantly change. Furthermore, the right offensive guard position needs to be upgraded immediately via the 2011 NFL Draft, as well.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Perhaps the difference is not the difference between Brady and Cassell. As I recall, that caused us to end up with an aweful 11-5 season.

Going 11-5 without Brady and losing a divisional tiebreaker was one of the better years in franchise history.

If Gaffney catches a sure-fire TD pass vs Indy and Merriweather doesn't let Keller lean forward for a 1st down, that team goes 13-3 and secures a 1st round bye. You take a season like that every year- a chance to win a SB.

An awful season was 5-11 in 2000.

 

[DEVIOUS 1]

No one player is essential. What is your point?

Last year, we had hundreds of posts that discussed how we would move forward if we didn't retain Wilfork long-term.

You ae certainly free to believe that it will be no big deal if we lose Mankins and Light. My guess is that Brady would strongly disagree with your opinion.

But yes, if Mankins moves on, the team will move on. But make no mistake, the difference between Mankins and say Connolly at LG is enormous. Perhaps the difference is not the difference between Brady and Cassell. As I recall, that caused us to end up with an aweful 11-5 season.

The only point I'm trying to make is that he is not the difference between the playoffs and the superbowl. His impact, in my opinion, is overstated. My opinion.

Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean your opinion disagreeing with me is right either.

Just to be clear, I love Logan Mankins as a player. I hope we can keep him. I just don't agree that he's such a good player that his impact would be hard to overcome. Thats all. I don't share that opinion all the time. I wasn't posting when Wilfork's contract was up, but if i was, my stance would be similar to your stance on Mankins. I just feel that position is that much harder to replace.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That depends on the team's expectations. If the Patriots expectations are an 11-5 regular season with a one and done for the playoffs, then Logan Mankins is expendable. According to Pro Football Weekly, the sacks allowed by Matt Light increased from 2 to 10 from the 2009 to 2010 NFL Season.

ProFootballWeekly.com - Matt Light

How much of the sack increase was due to Dan Connolly playing left guard in Logan Mankins absence or the deterioration of Matt Light's play is subject for debate. However, without Matt Light and Logan Mankins on the left side of the offensive line, the 2011 NFL Draft priorities for the New England Patriots significantly change. Furthermore, the right offensive guard position needs to be upgraded immediately via the 2011 NFL Draft, as well.

As a center, Koppen allowed 5.5. That is not good IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

The only point I'm trying to make is that he is not the difference between the playoffs and the superbowl. His impact, in my opinion, is overstated. My opinion.

Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean your opinion disagreeing with me is right either.

Just to be clear, I love Logan Mankins as a player. I hope we can keep him. I just don't agree that he's such a good player that his impact would be hard to overcome. Thats all. I don't share that opinion all the time. I wasn't posting when Wilfork's contract was up, but if i was, my stance would be similar to your stance on Mankins. I just feel that position is that much harder to replace.

There's not a single player in the NFL that is the difference between the playoffs and the Super Bowl. That's what happens when you're playing a game with 11 offensive starters, 11 defensive starters, a bunch of backup players, and special teams players.

 

[ATippett56]

As a center, Koppen allowed 5.5. That is not good IMO.

So if you allow Light and Mankins to leave, are you proposing to upgrade the entire offensive line aside from Vollmer?

 

[JackBauer]

So if you allow Light and Mankins to leave, are you proposing to upgrade the entire offensive line aside from Vollmer?

I don't think anyone wants Light to leave. Did BB have Light at RT during the Pro Bowl? I wouldn't be averse to Light at RT and Vollmer at LT, or vice versa, though past statements by BB appear to throw cold water on that option. But you have to keep him around another year unless Maneri is ready to emerge from the ether (doubtful), because there doesn't appear to be much OT talent available in this draft.

I'd like to re-sign Mankins, not so much because I think the team won't play well without him, but because you have to expect a heck of a lot to go right with respect to improving the interior line, since now you're obligated to look at all three positions.

I've been down on Koppen for a while and he's probably neck and neck with Connolly for the one I'd most like to supplant. Having an Alex Mack-type in the middle of the line might go a ways toward mitigating these seemingly recurrent playoff breakdowns we've been having of late.

 

[Shelterdog]

As a center, Koppen allowed 5.5. That is not good IMO.

Those numbers are really suspect. They say Connolly gave up 0.0, Neal 1.5, Vollmer 1.0 and Mankins 3.5. There's no way Connolly/Neal/Mankins gave up fewer sacks than Koppen, or that Light basically tied the rest of the o-line.

 

[mgteich]

I guess the sarcasm was totally missed.

Of course, we had a GREAT season under Cassell at 11-5.

Going 11-5 without Brady and losing a divisional tiebreaker was one of the better years in franchise history.

If Gaffney catches a sure-fire TD pass vs Indy and Merriweather doesn't let Keller lean forward for a 1st down, that team goes 13-3 and secures a 1st round bye. You take a season like that every year- a chance to win a SB.

An awful season was 5-11 in 2000.

 

[DEVIOUS 1]

The "contrarian" nonsense is idiotic of you, and you probably don't even understand the definition, given how you're attempting to use it here. Using Smessy's logic, Brady and Wilfork should never have been re-signed. Both have played in the last 3 Patriots playoff losses. Over the course of the last two playoff games, Mankins has been the best player of the three, and Brady's been the worst of the group. Hell, Brady has only one game with a passer rating of 90 or above in his last 6 playoff games.

Using Smessy's logic, it's time to get rid of the QB.

Your correct, the contrarian term doesn't apply to my response. I apologize if you took it as a shot at you, it wasn't my intention. I was trying to be playful with your reputation. One that apparently, you don't have much humor for.

Anyways, how I read, and interpreted smessy's post, and how you read and interpreted his post are completely different.

I'm not assigning blame on any one player for playoff success or failure.

 

[DEVIOUS 1]

There's not a single player in the NFL that is the difference between the playoffs and the Super Bowl. That's what happens when you're playing a game with 11 offensive starters, 11 defensive starters, a bunch of backup players, and special teams players.

I agree to a point. Some players, and positions have a larger affect on the game and are harder to duplicate production to than others though.

I'm sure we can agree on that.

 

[jays52]

Mankins is the third best player on the team and the best in the league at his position. Not only is he an elite player, he happens to play in a spot where the team is pretty weak. This logically makes him far less disposable.

He is also trying to get the one big contract that he's going to have a crack at. He's a 29 year old lineman who lost significant income in what under normal circumstances would have been at worst a franchise tag year. If he gets tagged this season he becomes a 30 year old guard who plays violently and never misses time. That's a three or four year deal with significantly less guranteed money. Mankins has earned a significant contract and deserves it. The team needs to retain him. They have a pile of cheap contracts on the roster and can by all means afford to pay Mankins. They should, too. It's not Mankins' fault the Saints were ******s with Evans.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree to a point. Some players, and positions have a larger affect on the game and are harder to duplicate production to than others though.

I'm sure we can agree on that.

There's only one position in the NFL that's a consistent difference maker. That's QB. Every other position on the field is pretty fungible with regards to the "playoffs to Super Bowl" difference, although all-time greats at many positions can sometime make that seem as if it's not true when they are playing.

 

[JackBauer]

Mankins is the third best player on the team and the best in the league at his position. Not only is he an elite player, he happens to play in a spot where the team is pretty weak. This logically makes him far less disposable. It's not Mankins' fault the Saints were ******s with Evans.

Is it your contention that Mankins is the best OG or the best LG? If it's the former, I wouldn't agree.

 

[Deus Irae]

Your correct, the contrarian term doesn't apply to my response. I apologize if you took it as a shot at you, it wasn't my intention. I was trying to be playful with your reputation. One that apparently, you don't have much humor for.

Anyways, how I read, and interpreted smessy's post, and how you read and interpreted his post are completely different.

I'm not assigning blame on any one player for playoff success or failure.

I was demonstrating the problem with Smessy's logic. The fatal flaw in his argument was obvious.

 

[jays52]

Is it your contention that Mankins is the best OG or the best LG? If it's the former, I wouldn't agree.

Best LG, which in this offense is significantly more important than the RG.

 

[JackBauer]

Best LG, which in this offense is significantly more important than the RG.

Fair enough. I don't really watch enough non-Patriots games to comment, but seems legit from what I know.

Could you expound a bit on the primacy of the LG on NE's offense?