Bad Drafting=Mediocre Results

[Ivan]

Try getting a life sometime, what kind of a loser groupies a football coach. Go take care of your FANTASY league loser. Go fantasy yourself in a real war room one day Ivan. As for your idle, I don't have time to explain all his terrible drafting last decade

That's impressive. I thought the incoherence was due in large part to the 4,500 word run on sentences, you have now proven that you be just as incoherent in 25 words or less. That made absolutely no sense at all.

Well done.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think we blew a chance to have a great team in the 2011 draft. We entered with two firsts, two seconds and two thirds. We drafted; Solder, Dowling, Vereen, Ridley and Mallett. BB made a great trade with NO to get their first in 2012 and ended up with Chandler Jones. After trading up a bit. We could have had Kerrigan and Wilkerson in 2011 with a very slight trade up to get Kerrigan. Could have had Randall Cobb or Torrey Smith instead of Vereen. We really needed a wr that year. And, didn't draft one early at all. Kind of mind-boggling.

I was a big fan of Jeffrey. in 2012 with the way the trades worked. Could have had him and Levonte David instead of Hightower and Tavon Wilson. It is what it is.

We should have rebuilt the defensive front in 2011. That was a fabulous draft for defensive linemen. We had the ammo and didn't do it. Mayo, Manxman, OTG, Rook, Patchick and all the draftniks thought for sure that's the direction we were headed. Wouldn't have needed to double dip in 2012. I like Hightower too. As a 3-4 ILB. Which was the strongest part of our defense in 2011 with Mayo and Spikes. Really, a head scratching pick since we were moving to the 4-3. I still don't think he's a great fit. I said the day he was drafted that he was better the closer he was to the LOS. I think he's fine at LDE in our 4-2-5. He can blitz or jam the tight end. We kinda wasted 2 years though.

I guess I don't understand this kind of thinking, Brother Pa.

There are lots of good prospects in every draft. You can't get them all, some you never have a shot at, some don't fit your system, etc. I try to come up with prospects who I think are good players and who would be good fits for the Pats, and I look at how those players are doing with other teams to check on myself. Some of the guys I've wanted have done really, really well - Richard Sherman, Lavonte David, Doug Martin, etc. Some of the guys I've wanted have done nothing special, or have even been busts. Some guys who I didn't think much of have turned out great.

BB chose to address the offense in 2011 and the defense in 2012. In 2011 most of the top defensive players were off the board well before we peeked at 17 - Von Miller, Aldon Smith, Patrick Peterson, JJ Watt and Robert Quinn. The only 2 guys on the board who have turned out to be anything special (not including guys like Justin Houston and Sherman, who werent projected as 1st round picks) were Cameron Jordan and Muhammad Wilkerson. Either would have been a worthy pick in retrospect, but would either have ended up better for us than Chandler Jones has been?

I have been arguably - along with my Fanatical Brother - the biggest Lavonte David fan on this board, going back to before the 2012 draft when I called him the best defensive player in the draft. If you're looking for a 4-3 WLB, David is the best in a long, long time. But if you're looking for a player who can play different roles in a multiple front hybrid defense, I'm not so sure that Hightower (who I have argued in the past wasn't a good fit) isn't a better fit. I've questioned the Hightower pick myself in the past, but given how he's elevated his game to another level and the way our defense is evolving, I can't argue against it.

Our two 2012 1s round picks are playing at a Pro Bowl level so far this season. A 6th round pick is a core STer and emerging as a solid contributor in the dime defense as a LB/S, and a 7th round pick has been a solid starting CB for 2 seasons. Realistically, it's hard to ask for more than that.

If BB had addressed the defense in 2011 and the offense in 2012, I suspect just as many people would be second guessing the picks.

 

[patsfaninpa]

He traded up for Jones and Hightower. Could have traded up for JJ Watt and Cam Jordan. Or, stood pat and take Wilkerson after trading up for moving up a pick or two for Kerrigan. We needed a WR every bit as much as a rb going into 2011. Torrey Smith and Randall Cobb sitting their for us. 3 years later and they are still better than anyone we've picked in the 2011-2014 drafts. A little creativity and it could have been special.

 

[mayoclinic]

He traded up for Jones and Hightower. Could have traded up for JJ Watt and Cam Jordan. Or, stood pat and take Wilkerson after trading up for moving up a pick or two for Kerrigan. We needed a WR every bit as much as a rb going into 2011. Torrey Smith and Randall Cobb sitting their for us. 3 years later and they are still better than anyone we've picked in the 2011-2014 drafts. A little creativity and it could have been special.

Could've, should've. This is silly, and you're generally better than that. How do you know that BB didn't try to trade up for JJ Watt in 2011? It takes 2 to deal. Or maybe he did, and the price was deemed prohibitive. I don't see why Wilkerson and Kerrigan would be a substantial improvement over Jones and Hightower. This is just second-guessing for the sake of it.

 

[Ring 6]

I said Jeffrey and David instead of Hightower and Wilson. So, yeah.

Well that isn't having a true pass rusher across from Jones.
If you want to think Lavonte David is a better football player than Dont'a Hightower, more power to you, but you should watch Patriots games more closely.

 

[JackBauer]

I'd rather have a pure pass-rusher opposite Chandler Jones.

Not sure what that has to do with Hightower's fit, or lack thereof.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Hindsight is 20/20. But, we were poised to strike it rich in that draft and didn't. I just think the incomplete team we have today can be traced to that draft. We had 3 picks in the top 33, our own 2nd, an early third and our own. What the hck do we have to show for it?


For Andy Johnson. Would you like to compare David's first two seasons to Hightowers?

 

[JackBauer]

What the hck do we have to show for it?

Dude, you're off-base here. BB has had some real flubs in the draft, but I'd venture most, if not all, teams would be happy with:

1.) An elite defensive end (stock rising)
2.) A very good linebacker (stock rising)
3.) A CB2
4.) Two rotational defensive backs and special teams contributors

 

[Ring 6]

Hindsight is 20/20. But, we were poised to strike it rich in that draft and didn't. I just think the incomplete team we have today can be traced to that draft. We had 3 picks in the top 33, our own 2nd, an early third and our own. What the hck do we have to show for it?


For Andy Johnson. Would you like to compare David's first two seasons to Hightowers?

I care about today, and today there is no question Hightower is a better football player. You'd have to be blind to not see that.

 

[mayoclinic]

Hindsight is 20/20. But, we were poised to strike it rich in that draft and didn't. I just think the incomplete team we have today can be traced to that draft. We had 3 picks in the top 33, our own 2nd, an early third and our own. What the hck do we have to show for it?

1. A starting tackle since 2011 and starting LT since 2012, who played well enough that the team chose to exercise his 5th year option (unlike 1st round lineman Danny Watkins, Gabe Carimi, James Carpenter and Derek Sherrod). Solder isn't playing too well at the moment, but he's had a lot to deal with between Scar leaving, Mankins traded, and a bunch of newbies.

2. Chandler Jones, a Pro Bowl caliber RDE with unparalleled versatility. Jones had had 19.5 sacks in 23 games played. Jones was drafted in 2012, but with a pick obtained from our 2011 1st round pick (#28 overall).

3. The core of our rushing attack for the past 4 years in Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley. Neither has been a franchise player, but they haven't been chopped liver. Mark Ingram (28), Ryan Williams (38), Titus Young (44), Mikel Leshoure (57), Greg Little (58) and Daniel Thomas (62) haven't done as well.

4. Marcus Cannon had to come back from lymphoma, but has evolved into a solid tackle/guard player who may well earn a second contract. That's not bad for a 5th round pick. They don't all turn out like Richard Sherman.

Ras-I Dowling was a bust at #33, and that's a huge disappointment. But how many of the players taken after him who might reasonably have been drafted by the Pats have turned out to be major players for their respective teams:

[35. Andy Dalton, QB (Cincinnati). We weren't going QB in at 33.]
[36. Colin Kaepernick, QB (SF). See above.]
38. Ryan Williams, RB (Arizona). Didn't last long in the NFL.
39. Akeem Ayers, LB (Tennessee). Meh.
40. Bruce Carter, LB (Dallas). Meh. I was high on Carter, BTW. I was wrong.
41. Jarvis Jenkins, DT (Washington). OK, but nothing special.
[43. Kyle Rudolph, TE (Minnesota). We weren't going TE at 33.]
44. Titus Young, WR (Detroit).
45. Rahim Moore, S (Denver). Jacoby Jones says "hi".
[46. Orlando Franklin, OT (Denver). We already had a solid RT.]
47. Lance Kendricks, TE (St. Louis). Meh. And we had a top move TE in 2011.
49. Ben Ijalana, OL (Indianapolis). Meh at best.
51. Da'Quan Bowers, DE (Tampa Bay). Meh. Won't get a second contract.
52. Marvin Austin, DT (NY Giants). Cut in his 2nd season.
53. Stephen Paea, DT (Chicago). OK, but nothing special.
54. Jaiquawn Jarrett, S (Philadelphia). Cut in his 2nd season.
55. Rodney Hudson, OG/C (Kansas City). Severely undersized lineman. No thanks.

There's no doubt in retrospect that the Pats should have taken the rumored trade offer from SF, but that's hindsight. The 2011 2nd round flat out sucked. Shane Vereen at 56 was one of the better picks, in retrospect.

 

[mayoclinic]

I care about today, and today there is no question Hightower is a better football player. You'd have to be blind to not see that.

David has been better through 2 seasons than Hightower. Hightower is a better player right now for BB's hybrid defense.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Dude, you're off-base here. BB has had some real flubs in the draft, but I'd venture most, if not all, teams would be happy with:

1.) An elite defensive end (stock rising)
2.) A very good linebacker (stock rising)
3.) A CB2
4.) Two rotational defensive backs and special teams contributors

I was very specifically talking about the 2011 draft. You take one line out of my post. Make an altogether different statement. Start talking about the 2012 draft. There's a reason that there's no decent give and take on the main board. It's a joke.

 

[Haley]

I don't understand why people have such lofty draft expectations from a team that wins way to much to have decent draft status.

 

[AzPatsFan]

As Manx has pointed out about himself, people here actually do point/admit to their misses.

The "hindsight" and "revisionist" arguments have their place, usually when targeted to specific people, but they are simply not accurate when applied as general statements about the entire board.

I'll accept that. But those doing that honesty, are few and far between...

 

[JackBauer]

I was very specifically talking about the 2011 draft. You take one line out of my post. Make an altogether different statement. Start talking about the 2012 draft. There's a reason that there's no decent give and take on the main board. It's a joke.

Actually, you're the one that conflated both drafts in the post I originally responded to.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Actually, you're the one that conflated both drafts in the post I originally responded to.

Did we have 3 picks in the first 33 in the 2012 draft?

 

[PatFanCraig]

That's impressive. I thought the incoherence was due in large part to the 4,500 word run on sentences, you have now proven that you be just as incoherent in 25 words or less. That made absolutely no sense at all.

Well done.

Your right it only takes 2 words....Ivan Loooossseeeerrrr

 

[Lurks_All_Day]

Next years' draft picks? All busts. Guaranteed.
/sarcasm

 

[Ivan]

Your right it only takes 2 words....Ivan Loooossseeeerrrr

That can only be seen as the highest praise from a guy who called Belichick a "bust."

 

[Deus Irae]

I think we blew a chance to have a great team in the 2011 draft. We entered with two firsts, two seconds and two thirds. We drafted; Solder, Dowling, Vereen, Ridley and Mallett. BB made a great trade with NO to get their first in 2012 and ended up with Chandler Jones. After trading up a bit. We could have had Kerrigan and Wilkerson in 2011 with a very slight trade up to get Kerrigan. Could have had Randall Cobb or Torrey Smith instead of Vereen. We really needed a wr that year. And, didn't draft one early at all. Kind of mind-boggling.

I was a big fan of Jeffrey. in 2012 with the way the trades worked. Could have had him and Levonte David instead of Hightower and Tavon Wilson. It is what it is.

I can't really find fault in any of BB's first round picks, even those that were less successful. That's no accident. Belichick plays it safe in round 1, and he takes his shots in round 2. If we take a look at the BB era 1st rounders, Easley is the first question, in terms of need + health, pick they've made, and he's a gamble only for his ACLs, and not all for his position or perceived ability. Maroney's the one closest to a bust, and even he worked out fine for his first 2 seasons.

Besides the Brady pick (and not counting the Lombardis, naturally), BBs greatest achievement as a GM may just be his record with first round picks.