Available Recievers?

[ausbacker]

It's surprising to me that people still label then chastize the Patriots as being cheap. The Patriots have committed a sizeable portion of their cap in the last 2 seasons alone to Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola and the guy now sitting in jail. You know when he put the Patriots in this predicament? Mid June. You show me a team that can replace one of their top 3 receiving options in June especially after committing big money, a long term contract and morphing it's entirely offensive philosophy to feature Two Tight End sets. Welker is gone. I understand why he's gone. If Hernandez had pulled this crap earlier, I suspect Welker would still be here.

Assuming Hernandez hadn't realised his dream of turning into an alleged psychopath, Brady's passing options may have looked like this yesterday;

1. Hernandez,
2. Edelman,
3. Thompkins,
4. Dobson, &
5. Hoomanawanui.

Now, had Hernandez not chosen his alleged course, at some stage this season, the Patriots passing options would have looked like this;

1. Gronkowski,
2. Amendola,
3. Hernandez,
4. Edelman,
5. Thompkins,
6. Dobson,
7. Vereen,
8. Sudfeld, &
9. Hoomanawanui.

The more I think about the result of yesterday the less surprised I become. Brady was missing #1 option Gronkowski, #2 option Amendola, #3 option and gone forever Hernandez and more than likely after his showing against Buffalo #5 option Vereen. Does anyone not think that screens and swing passes to Vereen yesterday wouldn't have gone off against that aggressive Jets front?

Let's pull back for a bit and realize the totality of what's occurred this preseason and how the Patriots have been forced to play their hand.

 

[JPsPats]

Sign T.O. :singing:

 

[borg]

Oh and '7 of which came on a busted coverage'. Actually 7 came on a beautifully designed offensive play.

So all of their good plays were game plan and their bad ones were just blown coverages or Milliner not being able to cover anyone. Sounds about right.

Without that gimmick play, the Pats would have scored zero TDs.
Reality check: Zero points in the second half......and a total of 6 points in the second halves of both games. I hope they can find a second beautifully designed play...that would be something

 

[ausbacker]

Without that gimmick play, the Pats would have scored zero TDs.
Reality check: Zero points in the second half......and a total of 6 points in the second halves of both games. I hope they can find a second beautifully designed play...that would be something

Could you explain to me how that "fake" which is designed to achieve that very outcome is a gimmick?

 

[mgteich]

Fine.

Make your self feel better about the offense. Blame Hernandez.

Hernandez is the reason that we didn't sign a blocking end worth anything.

Hernandez is responsible for the fact that we decided to count on 3 rookies.

And of course, since we have known about missing Hernandez, why have we done nothing to shore up either the TE position or the WR corps? Why did Belichick decide to count on the kiddie corps?

This may all work out. We may be very strong in the playoffs, with a fine set of youngsters after a 3-3 start, or the youngsters might not work out.

Why would Belichick take one of the very best offenses in the NFL and reduce it to hoping to be able to train rookies during the season to be ready by the playoffs?

It's surprising to me that people still label then chastize the Patriots as being cheap. The Patriots have committed a sizeable portion of their cap in the last 2 seasons alone to Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola and the guy now sitting in jail. You know when he put the Patriots in this predicament? Mid June. You show me a team that can replace one of their top 3 receiving options in June especially after committing big money, a long term contract and morphing it's entirely offensive philosophy to feature Two Tight End sets. Welker is gone. I understand why he's gone. If Hernandez had pulled this crap earlier, I suspect Welker would still be here.

Assuming Hernandez hadn't realised his dream of turning into an alleged psychopath, Brady's passing options may have looked like this yesterday;

1. Hernandez,
2. Edelman,
3. Thompkins,
4. Dobson, &
5. Hoomanawanui.

Now, had Hernandez not chosen his alleged course, at some stage this season, the Patriots passing options would have looked like this;

1. Gronkowski,
2. Amendola,
3. Hernandez,
4. Edelman,
5. Thompkins,
6. Dobson,
7. Vereen,
8. Sudfeld, &
9. Hoomanawanui.

The more I think about the result of yesterday the less surprised I become. Brady was missing #1 option Gronkowski, #2 option Amendola, #3 option and gone forever Hernandez and more than likely after his showing against Buffalo #5 option Vereen. Does anyone not think that screens and swing passes to Vereen yesterday wouldn't have gone off against that aggressive Jets front?

Let's pull back for a bit and realize the totality of what's occurred this preseason and how the Patriots have been forced to play their hand.

 

[ausbacker]

Fine.

Make your self feel better about the offense. Blame Hernandez.

Hernandez is the reason that we didn't sign a blocking end worth anything.

Hernandez is responsible for the fact that we decided to count on 3 rookies.

And of course, since we have known about missing Hernandez, why have we done nothing to shore up either the TE position or the WR corps? Why did Belichick decide to count on the kiddie corps?

This may all work out. We may be very strong in the playoffs, with a fine set of youngsters after a 3-3 start, or the youngsters might not work out.

Why would Belichick take one of the very best offenses in the NFL and reduce it to hoping to be able to train rookies during the season to be ready by the playoffs?

You should read what's put in front of you ahead of shooting off at the hip as per usual. Who was available from early July and onward to fill the roles you'd like filled?

I'm not suggesting Belichick's course of action is the right one. I am lending some of my perspective.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

Our style and schedule, the ability to go 6-0 in the division with no WRs, allows us to win 12+ and get a bye.

The issue is that we are getting shut down early in the year, last time this happened we had our worst playoff run this era (2009). We need vets to make plays while these guys learn, we don't have the defense to test things after 3 straight years of playoff losses we were favored to win.

 

[RIpats88]

Fine.

Make your self feel better about the offense. Blame Hernandez.

Hernandez is the reason that we didn't sign a blocking end worth anything.

Hernandez is responsible for the fact that we decided to count on 3 rookies.

And of course, since we have known about missing Hernandez, why have we done nothing to shore up either the TE position or the WR corps? Why did Belichick decide to count on the kiddie corps?

This may all work out. We may be very strong in the playoffs, with a fine set of youngsters after a 3-3 start, or the youngsters might not work out.

Why would Belichick take one of the very best offenses in the NFL and reduce it to hoping to be able to train rookies during the season to be ready by the playoffs?

because our "very best offense" didnt really do anything once it came to the post-season....we've seen that same old song and dance the past 3 years...put up 40+ points a game and then struggle to get in the teens in the playoffs and eventually lose...and it was the teams like the ravens, giants etc. who basically out-bullied you with bigger/more physical receivers

now, one has to imagine that guys like dobson the more reps they get with brady the better/more familiar they will get with the offense..but the question is, will they get up to speed with Brady in time

 

[IcyPatriot]

You want to put the fair weather fans at ease then you sign a vet or two.

You want to make it deep into the playoffs you stay with the plan IMO.

Those available vets will do crap against playoff opponents ... they feast on weak teams only.

 

[RIpats88]

Our style and schedule, the ability to go 6-0 in the division with no WRs, allows us to win 12+ and get a bye.

The issue is that we are getting shut down early in the year, last time this happened we had our worst playoff run this era (2009). We need vets to make plays while these guys learn, we don't have the defense to test things after 3 straight years of playoff losses we were favored to win.

If we have Gronk and Amendola back, with Edelman playing the #2 receiver I think we are in much better shape..at that point you are only relying on the rookies to play a smaller role...instead of having to throw them into the fire

and who knows, we could have both back next week..

 

[ausbacker]

If we have Gronk and Amendola back, with Edelman playing the #2 receiver I think we are in much better shape..at that point you are only relying on the rookies to play a smaller role...instead of having to throw them into the fire

and who knows, we could have both back next week..

I've always held the firm belief that it was Rob Gronkowski who made the Patriots Offense the deadliest in the NFL. Welker is a superb receiver, one of the greatest of the modern era but he doesn't create obvious mismatches like Gronkowski especially when you consider Gronk's catch radius and his impact in the run game. Hell, Gronk will be commanding double teams and that may leave Sudfeld with a juicy match up given his size (assuming he actually catches balls moving forward).

I'll feel a hell of a lot better about the Offense once Gronkowski, Amendola and Vereen are all in the line up at the same time with any of Edelman (hasn't his importance taken an upward swing), Dobson, Thompkins and Boyce. I do agree with mgteich that we're probably a Tight End or two short (I've remained consistent with my appraisal of Hoomanawanui being a JAG) however, that is going to depend on Sudfeld's development.

When you consider the injection of talent to come back into the Patriots starting 11, one or two of Thompkins, Dobson or Boyce won't be lining up on starting corners. They'll be more appropriately matched with nickle or dime DBs.

Ultimately, the situation the Pats find themselves in with regard to offensive skill position players is a combination of factors. It's not an ideal situation right now but the potential mix of player looks like it could be better long term. How the Patriots handle the growing pains is going to be up to them.

 

[mgteich]

You should read what's put in front of you ahead of shooting off at the hip as per usual. Who was available from early July and onward to fill the roles you'd like filled?

I'm not suggesting Belichick's course of action is the right one. I am lending some of my perspective.

Belichick is the evaluator of talent, not me. Belichick is paid well to make personnel cholces. It is for us to try to understand.

What we are left believing is that since June 26th, no TE has been available, as a free agent or in trade, who us better than Mulligan and certainly none better than Hooman.

What we are left believing is that since June 26th, no WR has been available. as a fee agent or in trade, that was better the Boyce (who most of us expected to be inactive most of the year).

What we are left with that since MARCH 1, no one was available to cause Belichick to move from his plan on relying on Amendola and a bunch of rookies and perhaps a veteran. After all, Edelman was an afterthought. Whose fault is it that not one veteran wide receiver, other than Amendola and Edelman, were available who was good enough to make the patriots.

Surely, all the problem on our offense is not because a part-time 2012 player, albeit a great one, was found unable to play in 2013.

 

[stinebot]

What we are left believing is that since June 26th, no WR has been available. as a fee agent or in trade, that was better the Boyce (who most of us expected to be inactive most of the year).

The Patriots offense is notoriously hard for receivers to pick up. Why would someone signed the end of June do any better than someone with the team the entire off season?

What we are left with that since MARCH 1, no one was available to cause Belichick to move from his plan on relying on Amendola and a bunch of rookies and perhaps a veteran. After all, Edelman was an afterthought. Whose fault is it that not one veteran wide receiver, other than Amendola and Edelman, were available who was good enough to make the patriots.

Are you forgetting the various veteran WRs that were signed in free agency? The ones that were all cut (except Amendola) because the rookies were outplaying them? Why on Earth would keeping someone who got beaten out make the team better? And who else was available? Mike Wallace? If he hadn't gotten the lion's share of touches he would be pulling the same crap in NE that he has already started in Miami. It's not as though Larry Fitzgerald was a free agent calling Foxboro begging for a chance at veteran minimum salary but the Pats told him "No way we have rookies who may not amount to anything but that's who we are going with".

 

[ausbacker]

Belichick is the evaluator of talent, not me. Belichick is paid well to make personnel cholces. It is for us to try to understand.

What we are left believing is that since June 26th, no TE has been available, as a free agent or in trade, who us better than Mulligan and certainly none better than Hooman.

What we are left believing is that since June 26th, no WR has been available. as a fee agent or in trade, that was better the Boyce (who most of us expected to be inactive most of the year).

What we are left with that since MARCH 1, no one was available to cause Belichick to move from his plan on relying on Amendola and a bunch of rookies and perhaps a veteran. After all, Edelman was an afterthought. Whose fault is it that not one veteran wide receiver, other than Amendola and Edelman, were available who was good enough to make the patriots.

Surely, all the problem on our offense is not because a part-time 2012 player, albeit a great one, was found unable to play in 2013.

We are in complete agreement when discussing the Patriots Tight End situation. I have disliked the signings behind Gronkowski and Hernandez and have been rather vocal about it. You will get no quarrel from me there. The moment that Tony Moeaki demonstrates he's healthy and has put his shoulder issue behind him, I'd like to see him in a Patriots uniform. Given that qualification, who else is there to go after? Would it be better to stick an extra lineman on the end of the formation and have them play as a blocking Tight End? How about Ninkovrabel?

With regard to the receiver position, we knew it would be heavily dependant on Amendola's health. One week into the season and he's played a major part in securing a week 1 win in Buffalo and has missed the Patriots win against the Jets at home. The potential Sanders trade piqued my interest at the time. That said, who was available to sign during that time other than Lloyd?

As mentioned mg, the success of the skill position players depends on the health of the starters because the depth is shallow.

 

[mgteich]

The Patriots offense is notoriously hard for receivers to pick up. Why would someone signed the end of June do any better than someone with the team the entire off season?



Are you forgetting the various veteran WRs that were signed in free agency? The ones that were all cut (except Amendola) because the rookies were outplaying them? Why on Earth would keeping someone who got beaten out make the team better? And who else was available? Mike Wallace? If he hadn't gotten the lion's share of touches he would be pulling the same crap in NE that he has already started in Miami. It's not as though Larry Fitzgerald was a free agent calling Foxboro begging for a chance at veteran minimum salary but the Pats told him "No way we have rookies who may not amount to anything but that's who we are going with".

OK, so all that was available as wide receivers in this entire off-season and through trade was useless (barring those who would have cost $10M or more).

We'll ignore Boldin.

I will also suggest that if the defense is so difficult that NO ONE, not one, free agent VETERAN can learn to play within it, then how is that Belichick though that the danny and the juniors would succeed? Surely the kids had to learn the NFL and the offense. Rookie wide receivers generally have trouble. Add in the impotssible patriot offense and they didn't have a chance.

And just BTW, let's not suggest that belichick was counting on Edelman, who was signed late as a punt returner at minimum salary (and hoped to get a backup receiver each game day)

Finally, I do remember the stiffs that Belichick brought in. I would think that either his coaches or scouts could find better, or could train to them better to learn the offense.

Interestingly enough, Reiss doesn't think that we should bring in anyone yet. However, if the receivers don't improve in the next two weeks, he suggests signing someone.

 

[Deus Irae]

because our "very best offense" didnt really do anything once it came to the post-season....we've seen that same old song and dance the past 3 years...put up 40+ points a game and then struggle to get in the teens in the playoffs and eventually lose...and it was the teams like the ravens, giants etc. who basically out-bullied you with bigger/more physical receivers

now, one has to imagine that guys like dobson the more reps they get with brady the better/more familiar they will get with the offense..but the question is, will they get up to speed with Brady in time

If Amendola or Gronk go down in the playoffs, or Brady suffers another high ankle sprain, all these changes will mean nothing. What's cost the Patriots in almost all the recent playoff years has been a bad defense combined with an offense that had suffered a recent loss to injury.

2007 - Multiple injuries
2008 - Brady
2009 - Welker
2010 - The only non-injury playoff loss, and this had Brady and Crumpler screw ups
2011 - Gronk
2012 - Gronk

You can hope for the rookies to develop, but that would have been true regardless of what veteran receivers were on the team.

What the Patriots need, in order to win the SB, is for the defense to be good enough, and the elite offensive players to be healthy in the playoff games. That's been the need since 2007.

 

[Efstratios]

If Amendola or Gronk go down in the playoffs, or Brady suffers another high ankle sprain, all these changes will mean nothing. What's cost the Patriots in almost all the recent playoff years has been a bad defense combined with an offense that had suffered a recent loss to injury.

2007 - Multiple injuries
2008 - Brady
2009 - Welker
2010 - The only non-injury playoff loss, and this had Brady and Crumpler screw ups
2011 - Gronk
2012 - Gronk

You can hope for the rookies to develop, but that would have been true regardless of what veteran receivers were on the team.

Wasn't the world's dumbest murderer also hobbled during that Jets playoff game? Forgive me, I don't remember everything about that game, so I might very well be incorrect.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

You want to put the fair weather fans at ease then you sign a vet or two.

You want to make it deep into the playoffs you stay with the plan IMO.

Those available vets will do crap against playoff opponents ... they feast on weak teams only.

So worth repeating.
We've gone the squeeze out one more year out of vets route for several seasons. The very few who could grok the system were so aged that they were easily neutralized by playoff caliber defenses. Flawed and risky as the youthful talent plan is, the plan to develop physically talented yet raw rooks is the best shot we have for post season success this season. It may totally crash and burn or there may be a man or two (hopefully) emerge with the kind of talent we haven't seen for a while here. I'm in. If nothing else, there'll be some great fiasco Youtube vids.

P.S. I will agree with those who argue we shoulda somehow signed Boldin. BB had his knockers wrapped around his head focusing on DA vs Welker and let that big opportunity slip by. Then again Boldin supposedly hates the Pats so who knows.

 

[Deus Irae]

You want to put the fair weather fans at ease then you sign a vet or two.

You want to make it deep into the playoffs you stay with the plan IMO.

Those available vets will do crap against playoff opponents ... they feast on weak teams only.

Your position makes no sense, given that the Patriots went to the AFCCG and the SB in the past two seasons using "a vet or two".

 

[ausbacker]

So worth repeating.
We've gone the squeeze out one more year out of vets route for several seasons. The very few who could grok the system were so aged that they were easily neutralized by playoff caliber defenses. Flawed and risky as the youthful talent plan is, the plan to develop physically talented yet raw rooks is the best shot we have for post season success this season. It may totally crash and burn or there may be a man or two (hopefully) emerge with the kind of talent we haven't seen for a while here. I'm in. If nothing else, there'll be some great fiasco Youtube vids.

The youth brigade has also given the Patriots some size on the outside. I'm sure they could have done the same with a veteran or two but (off the top of my head) I can't recall any available prize Free Agents WRs that would have been salary friendly signings for the Patriots.

The Randy Moss acquisition was a once in a life time deal.