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Auto town says: "No need for Big Three bailout"

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    When business is done right, that business doens't need the taxpayers to support them. Does your barber, your deli, your shoe store, your clothing store, your super market expect taxpayers to bail them out when they make stupid mistakes for 30 or 40 years??? No, they don't. They learn from their mistakes, make suitable adjustments, and get on with life. They don't whine about how tough life is; they do something about it!!

    [size=+4]No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant[/size]

    ANNA, Ohio (CNN) -- Many people in the diner know someone working in the car industry. They are certainly in car country -- there's an engine factory down the road, and they live between Ohio's major plants and the Detroit home of the industry.

    You don't have to go far in any direction to find a threatened auto plant. But the diners and staff do not back a proposed $25 billion bailout.

    The car industry in their neighborhood is doing well -- the Honda engine plant in Anna, Ohio, sits amid lots crowded with employee vehicles, ringed by carefully trimmed trees and endless farm fields beyond. It recently underwent a $75 million, 135,000-square-foot expansion.

    The success of the factory, which Honda says has built 15 million engines from scratch since it opened 23 years ago, has been spread beyond Anna, which lies in western Ohio between Dayton and Toledo.

    No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant - CNN.com

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  2. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    So Honda people don't think Ford and GM should get any help?

    In a related story cats say dogs are 'just no good'
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    Yeah saw this when it ran on CNN. The wisdom of a diner full of Honda employees, as it turns out.

    I feel about this one about how I felt about the financial sector bailout... you know, the 28 times larger bailout of the white collar industry we could do in the wink of an eye.

    Unfortunately, I think both are necessary. I also think strings do need to be attached, as does everybody... that translates to some form of government ownership, until such time as the Taxpayers are compensated for the cash infusion, with interest thank you very much, and plenty of it since the risk is enormous.

    I have friends who say let them go into bankruptcy, and just guarantee the debtor in possession financing. The Execs' argument is that the moment we hear "bankruptcy," we won't buy the car. So let me get this straight... you're threatening us with your own insolvency?

    It's a chutzpah. I say all the way across the board you claw back exec bonuses for a 5-year period, nationwide, everything over 1M total per annum pay, and stick it into TARP and Son-of-Tarp. Go nationwide with it and you begin to approach the cost we the worker bees are footing.

    And going forward, raise the top marginal rate to 90%, stop screwing around. If you want to call a reversion of the top marginal rate to 39% "socialism," screw it, let's make it what the country expected all the way through the 40s, 50s and 60s.

    PFnV
  4. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    If Honda can make cars in America that out-sell the "Big Three", there's some lessons to be learned by the latter. Britain tried to save their native auto makers years ago by using government bail-outs: they all ended up failing totally, and getting bought out by Volkswagen, BMW, and others.

    Let's see: 1 + 1 = 2 !!! Yes, there IS something here!!


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  5. PatsFanInVa

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    Oh and by the way? UAW needs to be in front of the Senate too next week. A lot of this cash infusion is to save autoworkers' jobs.

    I am not one to advocate intra-class warfare ("I am SHOCKED that an average Joe can afford his mortgage and a car!"), but I do believe that the UAW has a very sweet deal, and it's gotten sweet enough that it's a structural flaw.

    I have no desire to ping Joe Lineworker down to 90K from 100K, so that Wagoner can make another 10 million per year. I would, however, be in favor of some percentage of employee compensation and pension being held in that company's stock. Don't take away what's owed them by previous negotiations; just move 10% into the company's own stock. For the present time, while deflation pertains, I think it's reasonable to freeze their wages... assuming the claw-back and 90% top marginal rate at the top of the ladder. Sorry union dudes, but if I'm investing in the company that goose needs to be alive to **** out the gold eggs again.

    PFnV
  6. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    I find it VERY interesting that these guys interviewed in the diner are obviously all line workers -- not a suit in sight. Yet, to a man, they all said they're happy with their work, happy with their pay, happy with their benefits, happy with their lives.

    If these guys and gals can be so happy, and if they can be doing so well in sales, why can't the "Big Three" try to follow that kind of model???

    I'll tell you why. Three letters: U---- A ---- W.

    As long as the unions dominate Detroit, the Big Three are going to produce crappy cars that no one wants, and they will go down the tubes, just as the British car manufacturers did 15-20 years ago.


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  7. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    They are AMERICAN honda people...

    And they are RIGHT.:cool:
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I watched a debate on CNN last night between various experts on economics. They were debating the proposed auto bailout and I started to think...what is the Hotel industry needs to get bailed out? What if Hospitals all overt the country ask for a bailout...and they home builders and real estate agents. How about bicycle makers or ski resorts?

    What if Kroger Supermarkets needs a bailout?

    I then heard Peter Schiff say "We have to let these companies fail" to which the host asked him "Do you have a heart? Do you want to see millions suffer?

    My answer to her is question is, "Is suffering something that isn't supposed to happen anymore? Have Americans become wussified?"

    We do what ever is best for the economy and we do not take the path of least suffering. If our economy fails, then we fail as a country and as a people....and THEN watch how much suffering there happens!

    Personally, I am fine with millions of people losing their jobs if it means the length of this recession will be cut in half and those people will be back to work.
  9. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Them I can understand. If the big 3 go under Honda and Toyota's American factories won't have need to lay off for 20 years. So no bailout helps their personal economies. Sets them up pretty nice in fact. What I'm puzzled by is your interest in cutting off your nose to spite your face. You do realize that dumping 3 million people on the unemployment line would have a devastating effect on the economy in general and might just cost you YOUR job when all the ripple effects work themselves out?
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    1. Yes, I believe it is good to prevent suffering for one's people.

    2. The follow-up betrays that you believe exactly the same thing. But you posit "IF" this suffering causes a shorter, less deep recession/depression. However, you have no reason to believe that this suffering will result in the prevention of future suffering.

    Ergo, we both want the greatest good for the greatest number, over time.

    Why would you believe in the "IF"?

    PFnV
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    There are nothing BUT if's on the question of "bailouts", which has become a euphemism for "redistribution of wealth towards the ultra rich". But now we actually do have a model for what happens when the gubmint shovels money into the coffers of international corporations who are on the brink of collapse, don't we? The "If" here has been made a lot clearer IMO since we've seen how the payout to Wall Street (for lack of a better name for the theives) has sifted out.

    I'm sorry, but the Three Unwise Men who showed up on Capitol Hill the other day as if they were hip-hop stars and their entourages to beg ME for money was more than distasteful. It was a display of arrogance and entitlement that boggles my mind. I don't fault them, though. Afterall, Congress has a sign on the door reading "Free Money Here!"
  12. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    There needs to be a hard cap on bailouts. The banks who are holding accounts for tens of millions of people need to be kept alive, that's for sure. But for private industries like the auto manufacturers, who needs to keep those Edsels alive??? They are dinosaurs, they cannot compete with Japanese, Korean, or even many/most European marques, so why should they be kept on life-support?? Pull the damn plug. They are a failed business model, living in the pre-1970s. They cannot cut it anymore. Let 'em all go down and from their ashes a new auto industry that CAN compete will emerge. I have faith in American ingenuity; it just needs to liberated from the prison that special interests (greedy unions and greedy execs) have kept it in.


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  13. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, of course, there already is such an auto industry in America, the transplants from Toyota, Honda, et al. (I.e., the ones in that diner.)

    Do I care whether the money is funneled to Japanese execs or American execs or Chinese execs? Ohh, a little bit. I personally would get slick and work out a deal w/Detroit, with taxpayers as shareholders... and Detroit includes UAW if you ask me.

    PFnV
  14. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    If the UAW and execs sign off on major re-structuring, but I would lay odds of 10:1 they won't.

    Better to just pull the plug. They are greedy bastards, all of 'em, and let 'em die. The ones who are serious about competing in the world market with world class automobiles will rise up; the ones who want to sit on their fat arses won't. Mission accomplished.

    We need a new day and fresh start in the US auto industry in the worst way. Fresh wine in new wine-skins.

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  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    No bailout does NOT mean the big 3 disappear. They can re-organize through bankruptcy without a hug bailout. They'd still need some money though.

    daniels, I'm not so mucha against bailing them out as I am in setting a precedent that all major industries will get bailed out. We act as in money and our deficit don't matter.

    I am more of a "free market rules" economics guy than I am a socialistic guy. If we became a socialist country, I would lost all my patriotism. Then I would care less about this country.
  16. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    What insulted me were those men ACTING as they really care about keeping Americans employed. Who are they kidding? They couldn't give a rat's arse.

    It was so hypocritical.

    We MUST find a way to limit executive pay to worthiness. But it can't be done in a socialistic way. Boards of directors need to recognize these men are not THAT talented to receive $15 million/year PLUS $100 million golden parachutes.
  17. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I'm with you on the auto industry fogbuster....imagine that!?

    THE UNIONS GOTTA GO!
  18. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    We set the precedent 29 years ago with Chrysler. 1.5 billion plus 350 million paid back within 4 years. The government didn't even put up the cash, it merely guaranteed the money.
  19. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    SD.... you gotta realize there weren't 50 other companies lined up behind chrysler back in 1989. and that precedent does not mean we owe anyone a penney because the fact is we do not. Again, I'd favor a small loan to the big 3 as long as we had guarantees the unions would go. That is why I only favor a bankruptcy/re-org.

    No one deserves to make $80K/yr ($38.50/hr)putting pieces of a car together. people get masters degrees and make less.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  20. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Sounds like your whole position is founded on an irrational hatred for people bargaining collectively. Its not the organizations that signed the deal that's causing problems, its the deal itself.

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