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2. I agree on letting Wendell walk. Connolly could move to center, and I think he'd be an upgrade, but my preference would be to add 2 bodies to the interior OL.

Heartily agree!! :rocker:
 
4. What prospects in this draft do you like at interior OL? My personal preferences are:

- Brandon Thomas. I think that he could be a dominant guard. He reminds me a bit of former OTG binky Amini Sitatolu.

- Joel Bitonio. A 5-position lineman, I think he could be a great center-guard.

- Marcus Martin and Weston Richburg. I agree with you're assessment of both these guys.

- Billy Turner. Raw, but the tools are their to excel in a couple of years.

I also think Russell Bodine from North Carolina is an interesting day 3 prospect.

Great list!!
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You know I love Thomas, Martin, and Richburg.

I would add Dozier to the list, and Bodine is high on my Next Wave of Evaluations.
 
1 ~ Why are you carrying on about Maroney? I specifically cited Super Bowl 46.
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The Maroney situation speaks volumes about the importance of an important element to a successful post-season running game: RB strength/toughness. This ties directly into the point we both agreed on about a high scoring regular season offense as opposed to one that can sustain itself against a stronger playoff defense.

Maroney left us with a finesse running game which is only going to be complimentary to the passing game, it’s not going to be sufficiently strong to have the defense change gears. Law Firm was completely dependent on perfect blocking but Ridley did have the ability to make things happen all on his own. The benching of Ridley and Vereen kept the running game weak which was even more damaging considering Gronk’s injured status. Basically BB played it safe and overly-conservative.

So yes, I agree with you 100%.
 
Talking about 2 Centers going into this years draft Grid. John Urschel have you considered him as center with hes brain power?
 
What decline in our defense? Before all the injuries, it was one of the best in the NFL.

We'll use the Wilfork injury as the benchmark, then, for argument's sake. Including the game where his achilles finally gave out, the Patriots faced the following offenses...

Week 1: Bills (19th)
Week 2: Jets (25th)
Week 3: Bucs (32nd)
Week 4: Falcons (14th)

The average offense they were facing was in the lower third of the league, so it's not like they were shutting down juggernauts on the offensive side of the ball. That being said, I do agree that they improved from where they were at before. But where were they at before? In 2011 (prior to the putrid 2012 Saints defense and this season's Cowboys), they were the second worst pass defense of all time. 2012 was continuing that theme before Talib arrived and ultimately left at the worst possible times.

As for the supposed failures at drafting leading to the decline, when you look at the current makeup of the defense, I don't see how one can say that.

DE Chandler Jones - 1st Round pick
DT - Vince Wilfork - 1st Round Pick,
LB - Jerod Mayo - 1sr round Pick,

Oh, I'm not going to begrudge the team their first round picks on that side of the ball. Their first round picks are usually excellent. It's the consistent misses in the rounds after that, particularly at DB, that I take issue with and should be pointed to as the real reason this team hasn't won a Super Bowl in almost a decade now.

Dont'a Hightower - 1st Round pick, Brandon Spikes - 2nd round pick,

Hightower has been up and down since arriving in New England, and that's being kind. He seems to be the last vestige of the leadfoot LB's Belichick brought in when he wasn't sure whether or not he was playing a 3-4 or 4-3 under. Spikes was a nice pick, but should have only been used on obvious running downs. That he was out there on passing downs is either indicative of a personnel failure or a front office failure to get a viable option in coverage to replace him on 3rd down.

Jamie Collins - 2nd round pick

Too early to call Collins a success. He had a good game against Indy and looked exactly like a rookie trying to learn a complicated system in others.

CB - Aqib Talib - Significant investment

Shouldn't be counted as a draft pick but was an excellent trade.

S - Devin McCourty - 1st round pick.

Near failure as a corner, top flight FS in the AFC. Again, I'm not begrudging the team their first rounders.

Seven of our defensive players were first or second round picks. It's not as though the supposed failure of drafting CBs has led to a failure to invest in our defense.

Nor should it. But there's a reason why the team has invested draft capital in DB's every single year since their last Super Bowl win. It's because they've missed more than they've hit. This was a significant reason why Eli went 30-40 in Super Bowl XLVI and chewed up T.O.P. and it's a significant reason why they gave up the lead in the waning minutes. It's the reason why Joe Flacco picked them apart while Cole was face down at Anquan Boldin's ankles as he showed the crowd his bicep in the end zone in 2012. It's the reason why Manning looked like he was sitting on a swing playing pitch and catch with his receivers this past season.
 
They went from being one of the best of all time to weak, that's not just a decline, it's a dramatic decline. They were all offenses that had finesse running games and they also had weak divisional opponents which pad the stats, they weren't nearly as good as they appeared.

Take a look through the list of the best offenses of all time and show me one where there wasn't at least one game in the playoffs where they got slowed down considerably. Even the 2010 Packers, on their Super Bowl run, ran into a defensive match-up in Chicago. It happens. What you need to counter it is a defense that can generate stops when they need to the most and get off the field in a timely fashion on third downs. The Pats have not consistently had that since 2006.
 
Talking about 2 Centers going into this years draft Grid. John Urschel have you considered him as center with hes brain power?

Absolutely!! I just don't feel that I've got a definite grasp on'is Power, Agility, and all that, yet.

I incubate Notions for a long time, my friend: I admire Processing Speed, but don't actually possess any. :eek:

But, yeah, his Dimensions are freaking perfect for my Notion of a Center, Bro.

Yeah. He is locked ON on my To Decipher List.
 
Take a look through the list of the best offenses of all time and show me one where there wasn't at least one game in the playoffs where they got slowed down considerably. Even the 2010 Packers, on their Super Bowl run, ran into a defensive match-up in Chicago. It happens. What you need to counter it is a defense that can generate stops when they need to the most and get off the field in a timely fashion on third downs. The Pats have not consistently had that since 2006.

The Pats offenses haven’t just slowed down, it’s worse than that. Take a look at the points allowed by the Giants defense in 2011 and 2007, and then look how much we put up against them in those SBs, we’re below average!

Having a defense that can generate stops IS very important, and I agree that it has been a weakness for a while, but isn’t it just as important to make sure the opposing defense doesn’t do that to your offense?

Regular season finesse against weak divisional opponents doesn’t get it done in winter. Our situation is a double edged blade, on one side we’re nearly a lock to make it to the playoffs every year but the weak division also allows us to more easily mask and forget about our weaknesses, leaving us without a Lombardi and with later draft picks.
 
Take a look through the list of the best offenses of all time and show me one where there wasn't at least one game in the playoffs where they got slowed down considerably. Even the 2010 Packers, on their Super Bowl run, ran into a defensive match-up in Chicago. It happens. What you need to counter it is a defense that can generate stops when they need to the most and get off the field in a timely fashion on third downs. The Pats have not consistently had that since 2006.

The Packers put up 21 against the Bears that game, that season the Bears defense allowed (on average ) 17 points/game, so the Packers were above average there. I would term that a slow-down as opposed to sputtering, which the Patriots offense has done lately in the SB.
 
The Pats offenses haven’t just slowed down, it’s worse than that.

The only thing worse than being slowed down is being shut down. Are you saying they got shut down?

Take a look at the points allowed by the Giants defense in 2011

You mean the same defense that slowed down the higher ranked Packers in the playoffs as well? They could rush the passer with four down linemen. When said four down linemen were on their game, they were extremely difficult to score on. Also, why are you discounting the fact that Gronk was injured in that game and was more or less a decoy?

and 2007, and then look how much we put up against them in those SBs, we’re below average!

The offense drove with ease until Neal went out and Kaczur **** the bed. Even still, 2007 is an example that plays right into my hands unless you're prepared to attempt to make a case that they were a one dimensional offense.

Having a defense that can generate stops IS very important, and I agree that it has been a weakness for a while, but isn’t it just as important to make sure the opposing defense doesn’t do that to your offense?

It is, but it's often unavoidable. I'll be the first to agree with you that this team needs a WR that can get it done outside the numbers. I've been pounding the table for one for years now. But even the most potent offenses run into a defense or a defensive gameplan that slows them down significantly in the playoffs. When that happens, Super Bowl winning teams will rely on their defense to get off the field. The Pats haven't been able to do that since their last Super Bowl consistently. It's no coincidence that they haven't won one since then.
 
The Packers put up 21 against the Bears that game, that season the Bears defense allowed (on average ) 17 points/game, so the Packers were above average there. I would term that a slow-down as opposed to sputtering, which the Patriots offense has done lately in the SB.

The Packers offense scored 14 points. The other 7 were scored by B.J. Raji on a pick six from Hanie. Meanwhile, Rodgers threw two picks while the Bears QB's combined tossed three, one of which went for a TD. This was very much a defensive game. So, that being said, the Packers were below average in that game. But, thanks to their defense generating some timely stops and turnovers, they won.
 
It All Starts In The Trenches.

Where We're At & Where We're Heading

LT Nate Solder ~ An Ascending Star, both as a Run Blocker and as a Pass Blocker. Beast Years are Dead Ahead.

LG Logan Mankins ~ An excellent Run Blocker and adequate Pass Blocker. Going on 32. Past his Peak.

OC Ryan Wendell ~ A tremendous Run Blocker but horrific Pass Blocker. A Free Agent who should be wished well.

RG Dan Connolly ~ An adequate Run Blocker but awful Pass Blocker.

RT Sebastian Vollmer
~ A Star ~ yes: Star ~ both as Run Blocker & Pass Blocker since he joined us 5 Years ago.

OL Marcus Cannon
~ A talented Grizzly of impressive Core Power and Agility. Poised for a BreakOut Year.

As I perceive it, we are incredibly young and talented at Offensive Tackle, very adeptly talented at Offensive Guard, and hamstrung by an enormous, gaping wound at Center...which of course undermines absolutely everything.

What I'd Love To See

1 ~ We need a Top Shelf Center. Badly. I believe that Centers are the Lynch Pin of the entire Offensive Line and are both crucial to the Success of the Run Game and vitally important both to the Success of the Passing Game and to the QuarterBack's short term health and long term Durability and Success, especially in the 21st Century.

2 ~ The rest of the world doesn't seem to share my Perception about the vital importance of a Center as the Lynch Pin of the entire Offensive Line and thus the Offense as an whole. Thus, there is an annual Bear Market on Top Shelf Centers coming out of College, because the more talented Prospects tend to end up at Offensive Guard.

3 ~ And even within the depleted Ranks thereof, it is rare, indeed, that I find an experienced College Center who brings an exceptional level of both Power and Agility to the position and is also compact enough ~ less than 6040 or so ~ to withstand the rigors and abuse of the Job for a decade or more without breaking down.

4 ~ This Year, not one but two of that Caliber have declared for the Draft.

5 ~ Offensive Guard is way up there with Center, QuarterBack, and of course Defensive Tackle at the top of my List of Players whose potential Impact on a Team's Fortunes could be immediate and enormous.

6 ~ As it stands, we have a very good Left Guard who has peaked but who should still play at a superior though not great level for at least the next couple of Years ~ if we retain his Contract beyond this coming Campaign ~ and a young and talented Right Guard who I believe is poised to become a very good one, though I prefer them much more agile.

7 ~ The Achilles Heel of this Line, though, is Pass Blocking, and I foresee no improvement in the mediocre Pass Blocking that we received from our Offensive Guards last Year. Mankins is only adequate as a Pass Blocker, and is slowing down, while Cannon isn't exactly what I'd call "spry", and even if he excels overall will have enormous problems with Speed.

8 ~ As such, I would want us to aggressively seek out High Caliber Offensive Guard Talent in the Draft. It's always there, and tremendous Prospects are usually available for astonishingly low Investments, respective to their potential Impact.

9 ~ I would want us to draft at least two High Caliber Offensive Guard Prospects, and perhaps even three, for if I were running things, I'd ship Marcus Cannon off to the Highest Bidder. I'd hate to make that move when I believe that he's probably about to Break Out, but I seek Explosiveness and Agility in my Offensive Guards, and he's not a Match.

10 ~ I would likewise want us to draft not one but two High Caliber Offensive Tackle Prospects. It's a very tough job, and guys miss Snaps, especially Vollmer, the last couple of Years. With the crucial importance of Offensive Tackles to the health of the most vital component of a Team's success ~ the QuarterBack ~ I consider it criminally foolish to ignore development of High Caliber Depth of Talent at that Position. All it takes is once for some Scrub to get Brady killed.

I like where you are going with this. A couple of thoughts:

1. If we are counting on Marcus Cannon to break through, then would it not be better to retain him? That lessens the need for one position (starting RG), and since he is not (yet) an NFL starter the amount of compensation that can reasonably be expected in return will be minimal.

2. There are still other needs elsewhere (e.g., DT and TE) that make the possibility of adding multiple High Caliber players a difficult, if not unlikely proposition in a single draft. That's four quality offensive linemen we are counting on adding, and we have not yet considered other positions on the club in need of being upgraded.

3. With that being the case, which positions do you feel the Patriots are best addressing in free agency and which should be targeted in order of priority via the draft? For example, should Plan A be to add a starting DT via free agency, a C with the top draft pick, a TE with the second draft pick, etc., or would a better Plan A be to make adding a C the top free agent priority, with the draft priorities being DT, TE, OG, OT, etc.? Or are you confident that the Patriots can add latter round players like Urschel - despite (a) knowing that any of 31 other teams could have similar ideas, and (b) that even if he is selected, he is truly going to be NFL-ready to the point that he can be counted on without question to protect the QB, from week one?
Note: those plans above are strictly hypothetical for illustration of my question, and not what I am suggesting the team should do.

I like your assessment of what needs to be upgraded and why; I guess I am primarily a bit hesitant to (a) count on any specific player being available at a certain point in time, and (b) counting on a late round pick to be productive and worthy of starting right away (assuming that is the case here).
 
1. If we are counting on Marcus Cannon to break through, then would it not be better to retain him? That lessens the need for one position (starting RG), and since he is not (yet) an NFL starter the amount of compensation that can reasonably be expected in return will be minimal.

I would think so. Why trade a guy who can play at a starting level at 2 positions (RG and RT) who is still on his rookie contract and who probably hasn't peaked yet? To me, that's a guy to extend, not trade, unless someone offers ridiculous value.

2. There are still other needs elsewhere (e.g., DT and TE) that make the possibility of adding multiple High Caliber players a difficult, if not unlikely proposition in a single draft. That's four quality offensive linemen we are counting on adding, and we have not yet considered other positions on the club in need of being upgraded.

3. With that being the case, which positions do you feel the Patriots are best addressing in free agency and which should be targeted in order of priority via the draft? For example, should Plan A be to add a starting DT via free agency, a C with the top draft pick, a TE with the second draft pick, etc., or would a better Plan A be to make adding a C the top free agent priority, with the draft priorities being DT, TE, OG, OT, etc.? Or are you confident that the Patriots can add latter round players like Urschel - despite (a) knowing that any of 31 other teams could have similar ideas, and (b) that even if he is selected, he is truly going to be NFL-ready to the point that he can be counted on without question to protect the QB, from week one?

I would think adding a low-cost UFA lineman like Ted Larsen or Fernando Velasco, both of whom have proven themselves capable of starting at center, and then drafting a day 2 play such as Brandon Thomas, Joel Bitonio, Marcus Martin or Weston Richburg, would make sense. Velasco is coming off an Achilles' injury but played well filling in for Maurkice Pouncey last year. Larsen was a former Pats draftee who got away.

I think center was the weak link of the pass protection last year. I understand that Connolly isn't a great pass blocker, but when Vollmer went down it weaker the entire right side of the line. Put Solder-Mankins on the left side and Vollmer-Cannon on the right side and you should have a very good line if you can get someone in the middle who isn't a major liability.
 
1. If we are counting on Marcus Cannon to break through, then would it not be better to retain him? That lessens the need for one position (starting RG), and since he is not (yet) an NFL starter the amount of compensation that can reasonably be expected in return will be minimal.

I'm not counting on'm to break through ~ merely suggesting that I think he's poised to. Generally, it would be obviously preferable to retain such a Player. I would hope that that goes without saying. I've always emphatically advocated planning a Year or two ahead so that we can Sell High and Buy Low.

That's why I was pounding the table ~ before I joined PatsFans, mind you ~ to Tag & Trade Randy Moss after his historical 2007 Campaign. We probably could've fleeced the RedSkins for consecutive 1st Rounders. :eek:

KD Brian Orakpo & OT Duane Brown would've been nice to have.

But as I said: Trading Cannon is a philosophical move. I would rather take my chances on a couple of superior Athletes who fit my personal Vision infinitely better and who I believe have higher upside.

It's not as if I would've drafted Cannon in the first place.
 
2. There are still other needs elsewhere (e.g., DT and TE) that make the possibility of adding multiple High Caliber players a difficult, if not unlikely proposition in a single draft. That's four quality offensive linemen we are counting on adding, and we have not yet considered other positions on the club in need of being upgraded.

Mmm?? You project a lot of "counting on" to my post, Brother...what do I call you, Bro? :confused:

As I am overly fond of saying: I aspire to and hope for the Universe...but I presume (count on) nothing. ;)

General Douglas MacArthur: "There is no Security on this Earth. There is only Opportunity."
 
Mmm?? You project a lot of "counting on" to my post, Brother...what do I call you, Bro? :confused:

As I am overly fond of saying: I aspire to and hope for the Universe...but I presume...nothing. ;)

Call him Brother Jim. Dude, Richard Harrow died! WTF!? I gotta admit, I got a lump in my throat when it showed his "family" greeting him at then house and the zoomed back in on his face without the mask.
 
and which should be targeted in order of priority via the draft?

All'f'm!!

And in no Order, my friend.

I Play The Ball As It Lies. ;)

The best way to build a War Machine is to scan the Field of Battle, seek out Opportunity, and attack.

...and let the ******* worry about their Flanks.

Wulfgar Reinhardt: "There is no Security."

night03.jpg
 
Call him Brother Jim. Dude, Richard Harrow died! WTF!? I gotta admit, I got a lump in my throat when it showed his "family" greeting him at then house and the zoomed back in on his face without the mask.

Thanks, Brother Diction.

And don't worry: Appearances aside, Richard Harrow will never die. :cool:
 


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