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Asante Samuels moral dilemma regarding Jason Collins


Some members of all religions think that way....but not all members.

There are many religious people who believe that while their's is the "right" way it is not the "only" way and are more than willing to accept that other faiths are also valid and that members of other faiths are equally "good people" and, as such, are not to be hated, feared, mistreated, preached to or otherwise maligned.

they believe its the only way FOR THEM.....otherwise, it wouldn't be a belief.

every denomination preaches theirs as the one and only
 
Too bad for you that not every religion believes in ************....nor in the premise that divorce and/or remarriage is a religious wrongness.

It is arrogant of you to assume that only you and your chosen religion holds the key to goodness and the path to salvation.


I didn't say that my religion holds the key to goodness and the only path to salvation. But my faith clearly says that what it teaches is the fullness of truth and that in regards to faith and morals it cannot be wrong.

I agree with their claim based upon the promises of ************.
 
Clare, I'm certain I'm meant to be offended, but your impenetrable style renders me more bemused than put out.
 
RI, then I take it you're deciding on the behaviors of all people based on Catholic principles (as opposed to small c "catholic.")

In other words, the various "wrongs" you recite a couple of posts back describe behaviors that you, as a Catholic, deem wrong. But it is not meant to be a universal statement; only a statement that your sect has a corner on the universal truth.

This is not an unusual viewpoint among the clergy of a given faith, or even among a hard-line group of a given faith. The nifty twists in Vatican II to make all that's holy in other religions rays of light that may illumine the world are not, I suspect, enough to make those other religions mere "branches" of the Catholic Church -- just as Mohammad says wisdom is a jewel you can pick up wherever you find it, but still considers the rest of us unbelievers.

Now your catalog of "this is wrong" and "that is wrong" is, I take it, a recitation of Catholic dogma on the subjects named -- after all, you've got divorce in there, which God seems to think is right in the Tanakh, and then says is right in certain cases even in the greek bible. Of course he's also fine with divorce in Islam and in the other Christian sects. So it's not like you're saying "Murder is wrong," which is upheld by all the religions named here, and I daresay in every religion which has bothered to issue laws to the faithful in one guise or the other.

So, your interpretation may be binding on you, not only as something to do yourself but as something to tell others -- "Don't get divorced or remarried, my religion says so a lot!"

However, from the subjective point of view of those in other religions, it's of no import. For those of us blind -- or willfully ignorant -- of the perfect grace we can obtain only through Holy Mother Church, persuasion is necessary.

And I'll be damned if you or anybody else can persuade me that my first marriage was a good thing :)

PFnV
 
they believe its the only way FOR THEM.....otherwise, it wouldn't be a belief.

every denomination preaches theirs as the one and only

I could argue both sides of that statement. There are certainly degrees of dogma in there. Eastern religions have a much more syncretist streak to them, and we won't even talk about mystics (of many, if not all, religions.)

So, Orthodox Jews (I won't drag Reform into this) say not that it's bad for anybody to eat ham; they say it's bad for them to eat ham. I've talked to a Chabadnik rabbi who subjected himself to speaking to a college class on Judaism, where he answered questions. That one came up, of course (it's what most people equate Judaism with, after the "no Jesus" facet.) He stood there and told a young lady that it was fine for her to eat ham, just not for him to eat ham. "Some cars take leaded gas, and some take unleaded," was how he explained it to her.

We also have a prayer - all branches in Judaism - where we pray for the day to come when all will worship our God. So in that way, what you say is true of Judaism -- it's a messianic prayer, and it pretty much fixes what ails us, the problem of people worshipping other Gods. But we have no notion, for example, that nothing good can come to a gentile in the life to come... Rather, there's an ancient tradition that the righteous among the nations (you know, nations other than ours,) explicitly would share in anything good after this life.

Move on to something like Buddhism, which has a million schisms itself, and different religions are basically different kinds of illusion. It's all about whether you personally achieve enlightenment. From the Buddhist perspective, there's absolutely no issue with being a Christian and a Buddhist, or a Muslim and a Buddhist, or a Jew and a Buddhist, etc. Most often of course you're not, because it's a nifty trick to get by fully embracing Buddhist principles and simultaneously fully embracing some persnickety monotheistic faith. But the Buddha seemed to have very little concern about his religion being right, or even being a religion; he was concerned about people reaching enlightenment, regardless of their religions. If someone's a real Buddhist expert let me know if I've butchered this, but from what little I know, this is sort of the gist.

Hinduism is the parent religion to Buddhism and has a very similar attitude; your God is just one of the big ol' scads of gods. I honor and if given half a chance will worship your god... just don't get in the way of me worshipping all the other gods. Again, the following may not be a very good description... so any Hindu experts let me know. But I don't think a Hindu insists on Hinduism as a prerequisite of all righteousness; in fact, I think of Hinduism as sort of a convenient term to talk about the religions of the people of the Indus valley... you might be a heavy Ganesh town, and have a little bit of concern for the "heavy hitters" of Vishnu, Shiva, and Krishna; or you might be in a town where the other gods are sort of peripheral, or in a town where it's all the rage to figure out how many gods you can possibly worship and worship them all rabidly. Then there's the idea of the Atman (or oversoul,) and you may be part of a group that explores Atman and gives bare lip service to the gods.

Now -- I could also argue in the affirmative: That, in thinking best whatever they think is best, any confessional group therefore shuts out the rest.

I guess all this is to say that there are degrees. On one extreme is conversion by the sword "for their own good," while at the other extreme is a religion that says "meh, this is good for me, do what you want, it's just as valid." (I think some come close to that.)

Quick tribalism story. I'm riding home on the metro and surrounded by kids from Brigham Young. I knew because they had matching BYU jackets. So I'm eavesdropping, and I hear a young lady opine (talking to her friend) that they have a museum for "those people in the concentration camps," and "they should have one for Mormons."

I'm minding my own business but grinding my teeth a little. Then she continues "...because there was a lot of persecution etc. etc. etc."

And you know what? She's right. Mormons were pretty effectively driven west, and some of them out of the country. I don't know how many Mormons were killed during that period but I'd wager there were some.

Maybe it doesn't merit its own whole museum, but it sure deserves some national recognition. I didn't ever hear about the persecution of mormons until Mitt ran for office. Maybe we need a museum of religious intolerance.

Of course, the persecuting government was the U.S. government, so that's a bit problematic -- and one of the reasons for the persecution was polygamy, which throws in another big monkey wrench.

Just an interesting moment for me.

PFnV
 
RI, then I take it you're deciding on the behaviors of all people based on Catholic principles (as opposed to small c "catholic.")

In other words, the various "wrongs" you recite a couple of posts back describe behaviors that you, as a Catholic, deem wrong. But it is not meant to be a universal statement; only a statement that your sect has a corner on the universal truth.

This is not an unusual viewpoint among the clergy of a given faith, or even among a hard-line group of a given faith. The nifty twists in Vatican II to make all that's holy in other religions rays of light that may illumine the world are not, I suspect, enough to make those other religions mere "branches" of the Catholic Church -- just as Mohammad says wisdom is a jewel you can pick up wherever you find it, but still considers the rest of us unbelievers.

Now your catalog of "this is wrong" and "that is wrong" is, I take it, a recitation of Catholic dogma on the subjects named -- after all, you've got divorce in there, which God seems to think is right in the Tanakh, and then says is right in certain cases even in the greek bible. Of course he's also fine with divorce in Islam and in the other Christian sects. So it's not like you're saying "Murder is wrong," which is upheld by all the religions named here, and I daresay in every religion which has bothered to issue laws to the faithful in one guise or the other.

So, your interpretation may be binding on you, not only as something to do yourself but as something to tell others -- "Don't get divorced or remarried, my religion says so a lot!"

However, from the subjective point of view of those in other religions, it's of no import. For those of us blind -- or willfully ignorant -- of the perfect grace we can obtain only through Holy Mother Church, persuasion is necessary.

And I'll be damned if you or anybody else can persuade me that my first marriage was a good thing :)

PFnV



Yes, Roman Catholic principles. But not what I believe to be wrong, but what my church believes is wrong. In so far as other faiths mirror the Catholic faith, to that extent they will speak the truth.

Im saying that ************ is God and he came to earth to liberate us from sin. By this death and resurrection, he has saved us. His death has merited us grace which is the source of our salvation. He has also given us the gift of our church which he guaranteed would be free from error when speaking on faith and morals.

As part of the revelation he has given this church, we see the Lord's teaching on marriage. This teaching applies to everyone, not just Roman Catholics.

That being said, not all will be held to the same standard of understanding. Those, who through no fault of their own, do not understand or are ignorant of this teaching will not be held responsible in so far as their conscience is clear.

But those who were truly married (assuming that there was no defects in the marriage commitment), and who understand comletely the ramifications of their marriage, will be held responsible before God for a fracture of that union and the scandal of a new union.
 
ever read: 'Under the Banner of Heaven' by Jon Krakauer?

I could argue both sides of that statement. There are certainly degrees of dogma in there. Eastern religions have a much more syncretist streak to them, and we won't even talk about mystics (of many, if not all, religions.)

So, Orthodox Jews (I won't drag Reform into this) say not that it's bad for anybody to eat ham; they say it's bad for them to eat ham. I've talked to a Chabadnik rabbi who subjected himself to speaking to a college class on Judaism, where he answered questions. That one came up, of course (it's what most people equate Judaism with, after the "no Jesus" facet.) He stood there and told a young lady that it was fine for her to eat ham, just not for him to eat ham. "Some cars take leaded gas, and some take unleaded," was how he explained it to her.

We also have a prayer - all branches in Judaism - where we pray for the day to come when all will worship our God. So in that way, what you say is true of Judaism -- it's a messianic prayer, and it pretty much fixes what ails us, the problem of people worshipping other Gods. But we have no notion, for example, that nothing good can come to a gentile in the life to come... Rather, there's an ancient tradition that the righteous among the nations (you know, nations other than ours,) explicitly would share in anything good after this life.

Move on to something like Buddhism, which has a million schisms itself, and different religions are basically different kinds of illusion. It's all about whether you personally achieve enlightenment. From the Buddhist perspective, there's absolutely no issue with being a Christian and a Buddhist, or a Muslim and a Buddhist, or a Jew and a Buddhist, etc. Most often of course you're not, because it's a nifty trick to get by fully embracing Buddhist principles and simultaneously fully embracing some persnickety monotheistic faith. But the Buddha seemed to have very little concern about his religion being right, or even being a religion; he was concerned about people reaching enlightenment, regardless of their religions. If someone's a real Buddhist expert let me know if I've butchered this, but from what little I know, this is sort of the gist.

Hinduism is the parent religion to Buddhism and has a very similar attitude; your God is just one of the big ol' scads of gods. I honor and if given half a chance will worship your god... just don't get in the way of me worshipping all the other gods. Again, the following may not be a very good description... so any Hindu experts let me know. But I don't think a Hindu insists on Hinduism as a prerequisite of all righteousness; in fact, I think of Hinduism as sort of a convenient term to talk about the religions of the people of the Indus valley... you might be a heavy Ganesh town, and have a little bit of concern for the "heavy hitters" of Vishnu, Shiva, and Krishna; or you might be in a town where the other gods are sort of peripheral, or in a town where it's all the rage to figure out how many gods you can possibly worship and worship them all rabidly. Then there's the idea of the Atman (or oversoul,) and you may be part of a group that explores Atman and gives bare lip service to the gods.

Now -- I could also argue in the affirmative: That, in thinking best whatever they think is best, any confessional group therefore shuts out the rest.

I guess all this is to say that there are degrees. On one extreme is conversion by the sword "for their own good," while at the other extreme is a religion that says "meh, this is good for me, do what you want, it's just as valid." (I think some come close to that.)

Quick tribalism story. I'm riding home on the metro and surrounded by kids from Brigham Young. I knew because they had matching BYU jackets. So I'm eavesdropping, and I hear a young lady opine (talking to her friend) that they have a museum for "those people in the concentration camps," and "they should have one for Mormons."

I'm minding my own business but grinding my teeth a little. Then she continues "...because there was a lot of persecution etc. etc. etc."

And you know what? She's right. Mormons were pretty effectively driven west, and some of them out of the country. I don't know how many Mormons were killed during that period but I'd wager there were some.

Maybe it doesn't merit its own whole museum, but it sure deserves some national recognition. I didn't ever hear about the persecution of mormons until Mitt ran for office. Maybe we need a museum of religious intolerance.

Of course, the persecuting government was the U.S. government, so that's a bit problematic -- and one of the reasons for the persecution was polygamy, which throws in another big monkey wrench.

Just an interesting moment for me.

PFnV
 
No - good read?

I thought it was fantastic.....but then again, I like all of krakauers books are great

Gives what I thought was an accurate history of the Mormon faith in the US from its start, and it is mixed in with current Mormon fundamentalism even the fringes like the guy who kidnapped Elizabeth smart.....highly recommended

Another one is 'Three Cups of Deceit - How Greg Mortenson, Humanitarian Hero, Lost His Way'........another good current book that's fairly contentious that allows some of your own concluding
 


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