Asante and "coaching up..."

[PonyExpress]

The reason Samuel is a top 5 cb IMO is that he consistently makes plays on the ball. From the very beginning Ty Law raved about Asante's "ball skills", and Dr Z. put him on the SI all-pro team as a rookie nickelback. Those ball skills are the product of his experience on the offensive side of the ball through high school and I believe even early in college. It took him awhile to apply his god-given hand/eye talent in the NFL, but he has done so. In my "research" (yes, laugh) of college cbs, I discovered something counterintuitive: 40 yard dash time is the least relevant athletic measure for projecting a cb's NFL success. In fact, it is irrelevant. The reason Asante is not judged to be a "top 5" cb in the NFL is because he bears the stigma of a slow 40 time, which means he never carried the "physical freak" label into the NFL; lesser players who have that meaningless trophy walk around like pea****s for their entire career, and can't make a damn play. No matter how well a cb can cover, if he he has no ball skills, a QB has no fear of throwing in his direction. That means such a cb can NEVER be a true #1. Right now Asante Samuel puts the fear of fire and brimstone even in Peyton Manning because he consistently makes plays on the ball. That is worth a bundle. Personally, I don't want the Pats to pay him what he's worth, because it's not sound management and they can get by without him. I want them to franchise him again next season and trade him for a #1 pick. But I'm not going to diminish his ability just to make that point.

 

[Oswlek]

Ok, so this is an issue of semantics. What's the cutoff for elite?

I don't really understand the question. Frankly, I just go by what my eyes tell me.

What I do agree with everyone about is that Samuel is not anywhere near the player that "top 5" guys have been in the past. But I still believe that he is arguably in that category, which is why I stick up for him. It seems that BB takes into consideration "historical value" based on his dealings with players and, primarily, draft picks. It wouldn't surprise me at all if BB had an opinion of "He is certainly amongst the best in the league, but I think that with our safeties and DL we can mask a deficiency at CB and I think that the amount that Samuel is asking for - while legitimate - should be reserved for historically exceptional players."

I just think that people are using the exact same arguments against Samuel that everyone steadfastedly disputes whenever it is used against any other player.

 

[Michigan Dave]

You put ANY of those guys I mentioned in the initial post into the Patriots system, with what BB and the staff ask them to do, and have them practice under BB and this staff, and IMO they all are potentially, if not DEFINITELY as good or better than Asante.

I disagree. I understand that people are upset over Asante's contract situation, but some of the slams on his play have become ridiculous. Asante is not a random guy plugged into a system playing well in spite of his shortcomings. The guy is a very good player who last year showed what level he is capable of performing at. He makes big plays when it counts. Has he benefitted from the coaching he's received? Absolutely. But corner is probably the one position where pure athletic talent is the most important aspect of the game. We cannot deny Asante's talent and the level of play he's brought to the table.

I would absolutely like to see him perform again this year and show that he's worth the long term cash. I don't understand the hatred for the man here when we're dealing with a situation that is strictly business.

Asante Samuel makes our team better. Period.

 

[Oswlek]

my personal "elite" player is one who competes for the all-pro honors (not necessarily getting it, but contending).

I see no reason to dispute this, but I also don't see how it excludes Samuel. In the NFL, you make a living by paying for what you *will* get, not what has been gotten.

 

[cstjohn17]

In the year 2007 I thought we would be beyond the "coaching up' theory. All good teams are good at developing their own talent Eagles, Steelers, Colts, Bears, Chargers, Ravens, etc. The Patriots have won Superbowls with very talented rosters, exceptional QB play and top notch game planning. Some of their talent they drafted, some of it was drafted for them and some it they signed as free agents.

CB Ratings - You can apply your own rating but Samuel would start on any team in the NFL and be a number 1 for most. My ratings of current CBs are attached, the point is not in how they are ranked but the very limited number who are available in free agency. Samuel is young, getting better and knows the system.

The front seven will help the secondary but it also comprised of a lot of old and/or injury prone players. IMO, the best defense in the Patriots run was the 2003 team. They had a great front seven and excellent cover corners (Law & Poole). Why not do the same this year with Hobbs and Samuels? Do any of us really want to see Tory James playing on critical downs?

 

[patriot lifer]

I see no reason to dispute this, but I also don't see how it excludes Samuel. In the NFL, you make a living by paying for what you *will* get, not what has been gotten.

yeah I mean if you think he could very well be an all-pro next year, then he's an "elite" player in my book. But otherwise, he's a measly very good player.

Oddly enough, I do think he is about the #5 cornerback in the league, but I don't consider it to break the "elite" barrier. So we're virtually on the same page. I just don't refer to him as one of the elite players in the league.

 

[Oswlek]

In the year 2007 I thought we would be beyond the "coaching up' theory. All good teams are good at developing their own talent Eagles, Steelers, Colts, Bears, Chargers, Ravens, etc. The Patriots have won Superbowls with very talented rosters, exceptional QB play and top notch game planning. Some of their talent they drafted, some of it was drafted for them and some it they signed as free agents.

CB Ratings - You can apply your own rating but Samuel would start on any team in the NFL and me a number 1 for most. My ratings of current CBs are attached, the point is not in how they are ranked but the very limited number who are available in free agency. Samuel is young, getting better and knows the system.

The front seven will help the secondary but it also comprised of a lot of old and/or injury prone players. IMO, the best defense in the Patriots run was the 2003 team. They had a great front seven and excellent cover corners (Law & Poole). Why not do the same this year with Hobbs and Samuels? Do any of us really want to see Tory James playing on critical downs?

Very good point. No matter how many CBs people have rated over Samuel, he is certainly one of the best to make it to FA - particularly considering his age - in the past few years. Even if one says that Clements is better, IIRC Samuel is a few years younger which definitely offers some value.

 

[PonyExpress]

... for those claiming Asante's only had a 1/2 year of elite play. In his rookie year Dr. Z put him on the SI all-pro team as a nickel back. In his second season he started as the lead cb in a diminished secondary and did an outstanding job in the playoffs. Do you remember how he decleated the Colts' slot WR, and his solid SB play? After that season, KC Joyner tabbed him as a future star based on film study. In 2005, the secondary was decimated by injury, there was a leadership void in the 1st half of the year, no pass rush, through the KC debacle. At that point Asante got the "slow" tag when Trent Green beat him deep. But from that point on he rebounded to play excellent football to the present. His one glaring poor performance was vs. Marvin Harrison in last year's regular season, but he more than made up for it in the playoffs. An argument can be made that he was the best cb in the NFL last season. All told he had 12 picks, 2 TDS and over 30 PDs. That is epic.

 

[Michigan Dave]

In the year 2007 I thought we would be beyond the "coaching up' theory. All good teams are good at developing their own talent Eagles, Steelers, Colts, Bears, Chargers, Ravens, etc. The Patriots have won Superbowls with very talented rosters, exceptional QB play and top notch game planning. Some of their talent they drafted, some of it was drafted for them and some it they signed as free agents.

CB Ratings - You can apply your own rating but Samuel would start on any team in the NFL and be a number 1 for most. My ratings of current CBs are attached, the point is not in how they are ranked but the very limited number who are available in free agency. Samuel is young, getting better and knows the system.

The front seven will help the secondary but it also comprised of a lot of old and/or injury prone players. IMO, the best defense in the Patriots run was the 2003 team. They had a great front seven and excellent cover corners (Law & Poole). Why not do the same this year with Hobbs and Samuels? Do any of us really want to see Tory James playing on critical downs?

I agree, but I would take Barber and Jones (well, already done) down below Asante.

 

[Oswlek]

yeah I mean if you think he could very well be an all-pro next year, then he's an "elite" player in my book. But otherwise, he's a measly very good player.

Oddly enough, I do think he is about the #5 cornerback in the league, but I don't consider it to break the "elite" barrier. So we're virtually on the same page. I just don't refer to him as one of the elite players in the league.

Again, is Warren an elite player?

Was Harrison in 2003 and 2004?

I think the Warren example is better because both guys just made their stamp on the league after coming in the same year. Considering that almost every player to go to a pro-bowl or make an All-Pro list had such a season before being noticed I think they are in virtually the same boat. Most here consider Warren "elite" but the difference in their trend line is marginal.

Again, why is Warren elite but Samuel not? Or is Warren merely a "very good" player?

 

[Oswlek]

... for those claiming Asante's only had a 1/2 year of elite play. In his rookie year Dr. Z put him on the SI all-pro team as a nickel back. In his second season he started as the lead cb in a diminished secondary and did an outstanding job in the playoffs. Do you remember how he decleated the Colts' slot WR, and his solid SB play? After that season, KC Joyner tabbed him as a future star based on film study. In 2005, the secondary was decimated by injury, there was a leadership void in the 1st half of the year, no pass rush, through the KC debacle. At that point Asante got the "slow" tag when Trent Green beat him deep. But from that point on he rebounded to play excellent football to the present. His one glaring poor performance was vs. Marvin Harrison in last year's regular season, but he more than made up for it in the playoffs. An argument can be made that he was the best cb in the NFL last season. All told he had 12 picks, 2 TDS and over 30 PDs. That is epic.

That is the point that I was trying to get across all last PS. Samuel was outstanding in the playoffs when the money was on the table. And people kept saying how other teams picked on him - well that's going to happen when the team give extra safety help to protect against an overaggressive rookie.

If we take out the 2005 season (which I think is perfectly legitimate considering just how FUBARed that secondary was all season) Samuel wout unquestionably be an "elite" player. Excellent nickelback -> Excellent starter -> Clearly top tier player.

 

[patriot lifer]

Again, is Warren an elite player?

Was Harrison in 2003 and 2004?

I think the Warren example is better because both guys just made their stamp on the league after coming in the same year. Considering that almost every player to go to a pro-bowl or make an All-Pro list had such a season before being noticed I think they are in virtually the same boat. Most here consider Warren "elite" but the difference in their trend line is marginal.

Again, why is Warren elite but Samuel not? Or is Warren merely a "very good" player?

Your point is true regarding a lot of people and holding double standards. But no, Warren and Harrison are in the "very good" lot...for me. And it's hard for me to say it, but I know if I were following another team, there's no way I would call them elite.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I'm not sure just what elite means. I'm sure it's different for everyone. I also don't really care about that. I think Samuel is a very good pass defender, but not so good a tackler or in run support. Anyway, as far as the Patriots and coaching up goes, here's what Josh Miller recently said:

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1018051&format=&page=3

Departed punter Josh Miller on what he learned in New England: “I told my wife I’m a little ticked off because all my life I thought players won games. I was convinced. I thought the coach can say whatever the hell he wants, but the players will win the games if they’re good.

“Well, I came here and realized that coaches can win you three games a year. Definitely. Players do win the games, but the coaches put you in the situations. That made me mad because it made me realize in Pittsburgh, with all the talent we had, we should have won two or three Super Bowls.”

* A nice slap in the face for Bill Cowhah -

 

[theONLYJerseypatsfan]

First, DeAngelo Hall needs to stop being put up there in these discussions. He is a decent player with a name. Nothing more.

I totally agree.....someone should burn him for 3 TDs and in the process spit in his face.....oh wait....