Are you confident in this defense?

[patsox23]

I just think the defense played poorly last year. They seemed to have a lot of trouble stopping people at the key moments when you need to stop people. I believe that was an issue obscured in 2007 by the offense's ability to make OPPOSING offenses one-dimensional.

 

[Ring 6]

You cannot compare Burgess. He has not played linebacker for the team yet. It's really pretty simple.

As for the 4-3, clearly BB is using it. Whether or not it will be 'the base' is still open to question.

Burgess is not going to play LB, at least not much,
That doesnt change the fact that on half of the plays he will be in Vrabels spot as a nickel/dime DE. What do you want to do, compare half the plays and ignore the other half?

How is it clear that we are using a 4-3? We use a 4-3 every preseason. Then in the season we use it sparingly.
You are comparing the LBs by leaving out one of the 4. Isnt that saying it IS the base?

I'm not sure why you are taking the approach of comparing 4 LBs to 3 and ignoring the fact that different players will play in sub packages this year when the starters played in all situations last year.

 

[Ring 6]

Two eyes, ability to watch games multiple times and the ability to analyze what I'm seeing. Hobbs would still be the best CB on the team (Springs not evaluated due to his not playing) going into the regular season.

On the other hand there is no one we can put on the field who would not be better than Deltha ONeal.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow, ****y AND bizarrely off-track. But, then, you also seem to be under the impression that Bruschi and Vrabel, both of whom I LOVE, played well last year.

It's my opinion, and that's how I formed it. You asked why I felt that way, and I explained it. It was neither ****y nor off-track. You stated your disagreement, so I don't see your issue.

As for Bruschi and Vrabel, they played fine last season given the circumstances. Vrabel was injured, and I don't ignore that the way so many here seem to be doing. In comparing the two defenses, the overall issue isn't a matter of "which year weathered injuries and bad circumstances to do the best job?", because we don't know how this year will come out.

 

[Deus Irae]

On the other hand there is no one we can put on the field who would not be better than Deltha ONeal.

First, that's obviously untrue. Mr. Love serves as living proof of that. Second, we don't know what we've got in Bodden as of right now.

 

[JD10367]

Two eyes, ability to watch games multiple times and the ability to analyze what I'm seeing. Hobbs would still be the best CB on the team (Springs not evaluated due to his not playing) going into the regular season.

Eesh. That's a scary thought.

Really, though. The secondary worse than last year?

Last year's players, now gone: Ellis Hobbs, Deltha O'Neal, Lewis Sanders, Antwain Spann, Mike Richardson.

This year's new additions: Shawn Springs, Leigh Bodden, Darius Butler, Brandon McGowan, Pat Chung.

Bodden may or may not be as good as Hobbs. Hopefullly he's better. I can't imagine Springs being as bad as O'Neal. Butler, McGowan, and Chung couldn't be worse than the other three if they played blindfolded.

 

[Ring 6]

First, that's obviously untrue. Mr. Love serves as living proof of that. Second, we don't know what we've got in Bodden as of right now.

I meant of the corners that will make the team of course.
We've seen some of Bodden, and its not too early to tell he is an improvement over ONeal, not that the bar is very high there.

 

[Deus Irae]

Burgess is not going to play LB, at least not much,
That doesnt change the fact that on half of the plays he will be in Vrabels spot as a nickel/dime DE. What do you want to do, compare half the plays and ignore the other half?

How is it clear that we are using a 4-3? We use a 4-3 every preseason. Then in the season we use it sparingly.
You are comparing the LBs by leaving out one of the 4. Isnt that saying it IS the base?

I'm not sure why you are taking the approach of comparing 4 LBs to 3 and ignoring the fact that different players will play in sub packages this year when the starters played in all situations last year.

Wait.... I noted that the 'base' last year was a 3-4 and, therefore, used 4 linebackers and 3 D-linemen for my analysis, while going with the 4-3 this year because of what we've seen and heard to date. You told me that was unfair, but now you want to start tossing in subgroups?

Come on, Andy.

 

[Deus Irae]

I meant of the corners that will make the team of course.
We've seen some of Bodden, and its not too early to tell he is an improvement over ONeal, not that the bar is very high there.

Sure it is. Bodden did not get it done in Detroit all last year. Nothing I've seen from him in the preseason has made me positive that he's any better than that.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

How is it clear that we are using a 4-3? We use a 4-3 every preseason

How is it clear? Because the Pats have more talent among the D-line, not LB. In fact, Burgess will hardly see time at LB. He's going to do what he does best and that is get after the QB on passing situations. Even had Bruschi stayed with the team, the Pats clearly don't have what it takes at LB to run a 3-4. They have Thomas and Mayo and nobody else. Guyton is more of a weak side OLB in a 4-3 and Woods is more of a OLB in a 3-4. If the Pats continue to run a 3-4, it's their death wish.

 

[Ring 6]

It's my opinion, and that's how I formed it. You asked why I felt that way, and I explained it. It was neither ****y nor off-track. You stated your disagreement, so I don't see your issue.

As for Bruschi and Vrabel, they played fine last season given the circumstances. Vrabel was injured, and I don't ignore that the way so many here seem to be doing. In comparing the two defenses, the overall issue isn't a matter of "which year weathered injuries and bad circumstances to do the best job?", because we don't know how this year will come out.

I dont think anyone is ignoring Vrabel being injured, but to compare his contribution to the team to his replacement this year, you have to look at how he played, not why. I absolutely loved Vrabel and felt he was very underated. But the level he played at last year was well below his established level. When comparing last year to this year, its his play last year, not his ability, play other years, or injury situation we are comparing to.
For the defense to improve at his position from last year to this year his replacement has to play better than an injured Vrabel, not a healthy one.

 

[Deus Irae]

Eesh. That's a scary thought.

Really, though. The secondary worse than last year?

Last year's players, now gone: Ellis Hobbs, Deltha O'Neal, Lewis Sanders, Antwain Spann, Mike Richardson.

This year's new additions: Shawn Springs, Leigh Bodden, Darius Butler, Brandon McGowan, Pat Chung.

Bodden may or may not be as good as Hobbs. Hopefullly he's better. I can't imagine Springs being as bad as O'Neal. Butler, McGowan, and Chung couldn't be worse than the other three if they played blindfolded.

When did McGowan and Chung become cornerbacks?

Wheatley and Butler have been getting beaten like red-headed stepchildren this preseason. Springs hasn't played (and thus was removed from the equation), Bodden hasn't looked any better than Hobbs, at all, and Wilhite has been up and down.

Toss in Rodney at safety in last year's group and I'm fine with my analysis. As I noted, its only my take at the moment. Once the games start counting and the game planning comes into effect, this group could look much better.

In fact, it had better. Go find the thread someone posted with the preseason stats. You'll see what I mean.

 

[Ring 6]

How is it clear? Because the Pats have more talent among the D-line, not LB. In fact, Burgess will hardly see time at LB. He's going to do what he does best and that is get after the QB on passing situations. Even had Bruschi stayed with the team, the Pats clearly don't have what it takes at LB to run a 3-4. They have Thomas and Mayo and nobody else. Guyton is more of a weak side OLB in a 4-3 and Woods is more of a OLB in a 3-4. If the Pats continue to run a 3-4, it's their death wish.

Burgess is going to rush the passer. In nickel and dime.
Our LBs wil be Thomas-Mayo-Guyton-Woods for the 50% of the plays that we run out of the base.
How are we going to play a 43 with no 43 DEs?

 

[Deus Irae]

I dont think anyone is ignoring Vrabel being injured, but to compare his contribution to the team to his replacement this year, you have to look at how he played, not why. I absolutely loved Vrabel and felt he was very underated. But the level he played at last year was well below his established level. When comparing last year to this year, its his play last year, not his ability, play other years, or injury situation we are comparing to.
For the defense to improve at his position from last year to this year his replacement has to play better than an injured Vrabel, not a healthy one.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. The question wasn't "which team will weather injuries better?.

 

[patsox23]

As for Bruschi and Vrabel, they played fine last season given the circumstances. Vrabel was injured, and I don't ignore that the way so many here seem to be doing. In comparing the two defenses, the overall issue isn't a matter of "which year weathered injuries and bad circumstances to do the best job?", because we don't know how this year will come out.

Well, yeah, but if we're comparing how this year's D may compare to last year's, aren't we comparing how last year's - Vrabel and Bruschi - actually PLAYED, no matter what the reasons why?

 

[Ring 6]

Wait.... I noted that the 'base' last year was a 3-4 and, therefore, used 4 linebackers and 3 D-linemen for my analysis, while going with the 4-3 this year because of what we've seen and heard to date. You told me that was unfair, but now you want to start tossing in subgroups?

Come on, Andy.

What?
I said we are a 34 team, so its odd to compare 4 LBs to 3.

I said that Vrabels job is being split by 2 players. Woods in the base and Burgess in the sub. How can you compare Vrabel last year to his 'replacement' if you only look at the guy doing half of the job he did.

Thomas=Thomas
Mayo=Mayo
Bruschi=Guyton
Vrabel=Woods+Burgess (base/sub)

That is the only rational way to compare.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Burgess is going to rush the passer. In nickel and dime.
Our LBs wil be Thomas-Mayo-Guyton-Woods for the 50% of the plays that we run out of the base.
How are we going to play a 43 with no 43 DEs?

Seymour and Warren are the DE's on running downs. Burgess, Green or Banta-Cain are the DE's on passing downs.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure it is. Bodden did not get it done in Detroit all last year. Nothing I've seen from him in the preseason has made me positive that he's any better than that.

Bodden played better in Detroit than ONeal played here last year.
The remarkable difference in the other 52 players accounts for the w/l difference.

 

[patsox23]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. The question wasn't "which team will weather injuries better?.

Actually, it makes all the sense in the world. Bruschi and Vrabel played rather poorly last year. We're comparing, in this instance, how THEY played last year vs. how others this year may play. Exactly which editions of Bruschi and Vrabel would YOU like to use?

 

[mgteich]

We know little about this year's defense except that many players have changed and the team was 32nd in defensive stats in the preseason.

The defensive line should be even better than last year. Brace will be a solid addition in goal line situations. Pryor will be at least as good as Smith.

Losing Vrabel and Bruschi will make the linebacking corps. At least that's our story and we're sticking to it. At ILB, Guyton is back, and maybe there will be a player to replace Bruschi, perhaps there will be no 4th ILB. At OLB, Vrabel's reps will be taken by Woods and Banta-Cain. Burgess might also take some OLB reps. Is it really clear that the linebacking corp is better.

The defensive backfield is a question mark. Springs has been injured. Bodden has played OK, and perhaps will be better this year than Hobbs was last year. Bodden certainly is more talented. The rest of defense are all kids with question marks. The defensive backfiled SHOULD be better than last year.

BOTTOM LINE
The defense will better than in this preseason. Will it be better than last year's #10 defense? Perhaps and perhaps not. The key factor will likely be the preformance of the offense. If, as expected, the offense is much better this year, then the defense will be playing from ahead more and should do better, much as in 2007. In the end, that won't
really mean that the defense is better than 2008, only that they have better situations to develop better stats.