Are we not as far as we originally thought?

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

How many OCs has Aiken had over the years? Four or five and none of them made him into half of the receiver that O'Brien did. IMHO McDaniels is a great OC and he didn't.

As for the comparisons to Garcon and Collie, you have no idea if they are being coached up in Indy or they are just diamonds in the rough type of players. Plenty of WRs have come out of nowhere to become great WRs. Marques Colston was a 7th round pick and was a solid starter right off the bat. Wes Welker was undrafted and he led the league in receptions this year. Miles Austin was undrafted. All these guys emerged within their first three or so years as a Pro. Aiken is in his seventh season and could be out of football all together in a year or two.

He has never been a full time WR until this year. He wasnt in any of his OC's plans so you cant blame them. I am not making him out to be a stud that his OC's have failed to recognize, I am just saying that he could have produced more this year. This year was his first year as a full time WR. It is pretty coincidental that both Garcon and Collie are "diamonds in the rough" huh? I think it has a lot to do with what the Colts organization does. If Aiken took the place of Garcon as the 3rd WR for the Colts this season I guarantee that he would have done better than 20 catches 326 yards and 2 TDs.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

benefit of the doubt - Wiktionary

The only reason you're doing that is because Brady is better than Aiken. Look rationally at the situation, Brady was rolling out pressured and threw across his body into tight coverage. How would this be Aiken's fault?

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

He has never been a full time WR until this year. He wasnt in any of his OC's plans so you cant blame them. I am not making him out to be a stud that his OC's have failed to recognize, I am just saying that he could have produced more this year. This year was his first year as a full time WR. It is pretty coincidental that both Garcon and Collie are "diamonds in the rough" huh? I think it has a lot to do with what the Colts organization does. If Aiken took the place of Garcon as the 3rd WR for the Colts this season I guarantee that he would have done better than 20 catches 326 yards and 2 TDs.

How can you make any guarantees on a seven year player who has never produced more than he did this year. Again, Aiken wasn't a fulltime receiver prior to this year because he didn't show enough in practice or in the preseason to justify playing time. Why is it so hard to understand?

Collie was a fourth round pick. Not exactly a diamond in the rough. He pretty much played to what you would expect out of a fourth round WR who plays up to his ability. I was just making a point. Besides, it is no coincidence. The Colts have been great drafters over the years. You would expect them to find diamonds in the rough.

Aikens might have done better with the Colts, he might not have. Odds are he would never see the field or the active roster with the current Colts team. He is nowhere as good as Collie or Garcon.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

How can you make any guarantees on a seven year player who has never produced more than he did this year. Again, Aiken wasn't a fulltime receiver prior to this year because he didn't show enough in practice or in the preseason to justify playing time. Why is it so hard to understand?

Collie was a fourth round pick. Not exactly a diamond in the rough. He pretty much played to what you would expect out of a fourth round WR who plays up to his ability. I was just making a point. Besides, it is no coincidence. The Colts have been great drafters over the years. You would expect them to find diamonds in the rough.

Aikens might have done better with the Colts, he might not have. Odds are he would never see the field or the active roster with the current Colts team. He is nowhere as good as Collie or Garcon.

It isnt about what he did in the past though, its what he did and showed on the field this year. He showed some glimpses that he could be a quality 3rd WR in the league. And I didnt say that he would play over Garcon or Collie because they are in fact better than him, I am saying if Garcon wasnt on the Colts roster and Aiken was.

 

[Patjew]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Aiken stinks almost as bad as Kaczur.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

It isnt about what he did in the past though, its what he did and showed on the field this year. He showed some glimpses that he could be a quality 3rd WR in the league. And I didnt say that he would play over Garcon or Collie because they are in fact better than him, I am saying if Garcon wasnt on the Colts roster and Aiken was.

:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

I think you are the most mature poster on this site. Congrats

 

[zoostation]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

*Draft/sign a couple of legit pass rushers. That will immediately improve two areas on the defense. It'll be amazing how much better the secondary will perform when they don't have to hold coverage for 10 + seconds on every play because nobody is pressuring the QB.
The Patriots WILL BE FINE!!!!

A pass rusher makes ALL the difference in the world and will improve this teams by leaps and bounds. Dwight Freeney played well in the first half, and then his ankle stiffened up and he was not effective ib the 2nd giving brees all day in the pocket.

Hate to say this but the Colts probably win that game with a healthy Freeney.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Aiken, Aiken, Aiken

What about Watson, what about Maroney, what about Baker. What about running the football in the second half

Against Arizona we decided to use Moss more creatively and he went over 100 yards. Then we totally abandoned it. And I lost count of how many games we came out with a balanced offense, good running plays, screens, RB out the flats and moving the ball in the first half

Then second half it was pass out the gun, draw to Faulk, pass out of the gun with Moss deep and Brady staring down Welker period. Teams rushed with 3 down lineman and just packed the secondary. It was obvious, it was predictable and my Grandmother could have called it. We could have done so much more with the TE's, with Edelman, with Maroney/Morris

Some more creative playcalling and better use of personnel and we very well have won at least 3 or 4 games when the offense just died and teams staged high 4th quarter turnarounds

Aiken may be poor but the playcalling was far worse

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

It isnt about what he did in the past though, its what he did and showed on the field this year. He showed some glimpses that he could be a quality 3rd WR in the league. And I didnt say that he would play over Garcon or Collie because they are in fact better than him, I am saying if Garcon wasnt on the Colts roster and Aiken was.

He might have shown glimpses of being a quality 3rd WR, but he showed tons that he was ill-suited for the role. I do admit he drops very catchable balls like an elite WR like TO does. He has mastered that.

Face it. If the guy didn't have a QB like Brady throwing to him, Aiken wouldn't have gotten 100 yards this season. He sucks.

There are reasons to complain about Bill O'Brien's play calling, but arguing that he didn't get the most out of Sam Aiken and Aiken could have more than doubled his yards this season in another system is ridiculous. You want argue he was too pass happy, he had too many plays go to Moss and Welker, he called bad plays in key situations, or he was too indecisive which cost Brady to burn time outs; I won't argue too hard. But the fact that the depth at WR was so horrible with Aiken, Edelman, the ball boy, etc. is actually his best excuse why the offense struggled.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

How many OCs has Aiken had over the years? Four or five and none of them made him into half of the receiver that O'Brien did. IMHO McDaniels is a great OC and he didn't.

I'd say Aiken was just about the same receiver he was anywhere else he's been. Don't mistake more opportunity/snaps with increased performance.

Up until he made that insane grab in Miami, he was one of the worst receivers in the league in DVOA. I think he still remains pretty low and had a terrible catch rate. The guy has just brutal hands and can't get separation.

The kind of catches Pierre Garcon makes, Sam Aiken misses, and might even result in an INT. That's the thing that kills me about this season - Manning is getting props for throwing passes through the needle that his receivers hold onto. Brady throws similar passes to Galloway or Aiken, and they were getting dropped, or worse, picked off. 2 of the 3 picks Brady threw in the Baltimore game are routine catches we saw the Colts and Saints making. That's why they were playing into February and we weren't.

We need actual NFL caliber wide receivers. And we need 4-5 like we used to. If we could carry 5 pure wideouts in 2003 & 2004, why can't we carry 4-5 pure wideouts in 2007-2010, when we spread it out 50% of the time?

As for O'Brien, I'll be cautiously optimistic that he gets better, but I think he had a tough year trying to fill McD's shoes, and a huge part of that blame is on the personnel. But he doesn't get a free pass. Just look at how often we got delay of games or Brady had a burn a timeout b/c the play wasn't in. He was a rookie NFL OC and made rookie mistakes. The fact that Belichick did not give him the title of OC after this season when I believe McD had earned that title in one year does not necessarily reflect well. I could be mistaken about that fact though, as always, BB is a little cryptic with that stuff.

This offense was one of the best in the league this year, but it should be THE best, and it should be putting up 35 points a game. All it needs is two more legitimate wide receivers and less predictability on offense.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

He has never been a full time WR until this year. He wasnt in any of his OC's plans so you cant blame them. I am not making him out to be a stud that his OC's have failed to recognize, I am just saying that he could have produced more this year. This year was his first year as a full time WR. It is pretty coincidental that both Garcon and Collie are "diamonds in the rough" huh? I think it has a lot to do with what the Colts organization does. If Aiken took the place of Garcon as the 3rd WR for the Colts this season I guarantee that he would have done better than 20 catches 326 yards and 2 TDs.

So where was Garcon in 2008?

Garcon elevated his game in 2009 after hours of off season work with Goober.

Considering last off season, it's premature to make any blanket statements of receivers not named Moss/Welker.

That's probably the major reason why Lewis and Galloway were brought in.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Aiken, Aiken, Aiken

What about Watson, what about Maroney, what about Baker. What about running the football in the second half

Against Arizona we decided to use Moss more creatively and he went over 100 yards. Then we totally abandoned it. And I lost count of how many games we came out with a balanced offense, good running plays, screens, RB out the flats and moving the ball in the first half

Then second half it was pass out the gun, draw to Faulk, pass out of the gun with Moss deep and Brady staring down Welker period. Teams rushed with 3 down lineman and just packed the secondary. It was obvious, it was predictable and my Grandmother could have called it. We could have done so much more with the TE's, with Edelman, with Maroney/Morris

Some more creative playcalling and better use of personnel and we very well have won at least 3 or 4 games when the offense just died and teams staged high 4th quarter turnarounds

Aiken may be poor but the playcalling was far worse

Exactly my point ! All these clowns want to focus is on Aiken. WGAS(Who gives a sh**) about Aiken. The root issue is outside of Moss or Welker this team had zip focus to involve anyone else in the offense. That responsibility is on the OC & HC.

If the team simply wants to live & die by Moss & Welker, then fine, it makes no difference just fill the roster out with likes of Aiken, Stanbeck, Slater, over the hill Fred Taylor and Galloway's, and underutilize or do not find creative ways to get likes of Watson, Maroney into the Offense. In that case as the HC says....You are who you are, turning into a one dimensional mediocre team.

2010 will be interesting to see what "Offenseive Strategy" will the team develop as Moss will be another year older, and Welker is effectively done for 2010 season and cannot be expected to make strong contribution. So, running game is abysmal with focus to develop OL to help Maroney, and TE are invisible and likely Watson is gone.....While all this is going on the HC is focusing to rebuild the Defense.

 

[emoney_33]

Exactly my point ! All these clowns want to focus is on Aiken. WGAS(Who gives a sh**) about Aiken. The root issue is outside of Moss or Welker this team had zip focus to involve anyone else in the offense. That responsibility is on the OC & HC.

They had no one else, get over it.

If the team simply wants to live & die by Moss & Welker, then fine, it makes no difference just fill the roster out with likes of Aiken, Stanbeck, Slater, over the hill Fred Taylor and Galloway's, and underutilize or do not find creative ways to get likes of Watson, Maroney into the Offense. In that case as the HC says....You are who you are, turning into a one dimensional mediocre team.

Watson is a TE. TEs need to block. Otherwise, you put a WR in there. Maroney is a RB, his job is to run, block and occasionally be an outlet/last option in the flat. Why do you guys continue to try to blame the OC/HC for not using them the way you WANT them to be used? Stop playing Madden.

2010 will be interesting to see what "Offenseive Strategy" will the team develop as Moss will be another year older, and Welker is effectively done for 2010 season and cannot be expected to make strong contribution. So, running game is abysmal with focus to develop OL to help Maroney, and TE are invisible and likely Watson is gone.....While all this is going on the HC is focusing to rebuild the Defense.

Moss was top 3 receiver with a separated shoulder in 2009. The HC is not "focused" on any one area while ignoring others. The defense is already MOSTLY rebuilt. Edelman is going to be productive. There's no way you can determine now that Welker is "effectively done" for the 2010 season. The running game is not abysmal (4.1 YPC as a whole). There is an entire offseason of free agency and draft to improve and find receiver depth. We had a top 5 offense in 2009, stop whining as if we are bottom of the league.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

I'd say Aiken was just about the same receiver he was anywhere else he's been. Don't mistake more opportunity/snaps with increased performance.

Up until he made that insane grab in Miami, he was one of the worst receivers in the league in DVOA. I think he still remains pretty low and had a terrible catch rate. The guy has just brutal hands and can't get separation.

The kind of catches Pierre Garcon makes, Sam Aiken misses, and might even result in an INT. That's the thing that kills me about this season - Manning is getting props for throwing passes through the needle that his receivers hold onto. Brady throws similar passes to Galloway or Aiken, and they were getting dropped, or worse, picked off. 2 of the 3 picks Brady threw in the Baltimore game are routine catches we saw the Colts and Saints making. That's why they were playing into February and we weren't.

We need actual NFL caliber wide receivers. And we need 4-5 like we used to. If we could carry 5 pure wideouts in 2003 & 2004, why can't we carry 4-5 pure wideouts in 2007-2010, when we spread it out 50% of the time?

As for O'Brien, I'll be cautiously optimistic that he gets better, but I think he had a tough year trying to fill McD's shoes, and a huge part of that blame is on the personnel. But he doesn't get a free pass. Just look at how often we got delay of games or Brady had a burn a timeout b/c the play wasn't in. He was a rookie NFL OC and made rookie mistakes. The fact that Belichick did not give him the title of OC after this season when I believe McD had earned that title in one year does not necessarily reflect well. I could be mistaken about that fact though, as always, BB is a little cryptic with that stuff.

This offense was one of the best in the league this year, but it should be THE best, and it should be putting up 35 points a game. All it needs is two more legitimate wide receivers and less predictability on offense.

2003-2004 you actually had balanced receiving corps wt WR, TE, and out of the backfield a run game.........back then we used all the weapons the O had.

Now we have revolving door policy for receiver #3-5 since #1 is paid big $$, and come playoff time the opposing D's lock him up. So, basically, when #2 went down, Ravens exposed the Pats for who they are now, a one WR one dimensional team with no threat of running attack or a pass catching TE threat or pass catching outlet RB (Faulk is now 33 and no successor developed behind him)

Bigger problem on this team from outside are not necessarily on Defense. Rather, huge holes on this team that will be exposed in 2010 are on Offense....poor WR depth, no Running Game focus, no focus to involve TE, and overrated OL. Thus, even more surprising BB is taking Defensive responsibility....So, who handles OC role ? or QB coach ?

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

2003-2004 you actually had balanced receiving corps wt WR, TE, and out of the backfield a run game.........back then we used all the weapons the O had.

Now we have revolving door policy for receiver #3-5 since #1 is paid big $$, and come playoff time the opposing D's lock him up. So, basically, when #2 went down, Ravens exposed the Pats for who they are now, a one WR one dimensional team with no threat of running attack or a pass catching TE threat or pass catching outlet RB (Faulk is now 33 and no successor developed behind him)

Bigger problem on this team from outside are not necessarily on Defense. Rather, huge holes on this team that will be exposed in 2010 are on Offense....poor WR depth, no Running Game focus, no focus to involve TE, and overrated OL. Thus, even more surprising BB is taking Defensive responsibility....So, who handles OC role ? or QB coach ?

You don't know what you are saying. In 2003 we scored 21.8 PPG, why do you yearn for that crappy offense? It took a separated shoulder to one guy and torn ACL to the other guy to finally really expose the lack of WR depth on the team. I can almost guarantee you that there will be more WR depth in 2010. Aiken will NOT start the year as a starting receiver, and it is highly unlikely they fail on all their options as they did this offseason. Lewis, Galloway, Tate, Nunn... That's not likely to happen again. The running game is just fine as it produced 4.1 YPC.

To claim that there are huge holes that "will be exposed" in 2010 and it's only February indicates you are either a short-sighted knee-jerk type or just don't really pay attention. We had a top 5 offense in 2009, but now all of a sudden the Patriots will do NOTHING to improve it and they will be horrible. Yeah that is likely, I mean BB and the Patriots always just sit on their arse and do nothing to improve.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

They had no one else, get over it.



Watson is a TE. TEs need to block. Otherwise, you put a WR in there. Maroney is a RB, his job is to run, block and occasionally be an outlet/last option in the flat. Why do you guys continue to try to blame the OC/HC for not using them the way you WANT them to be used? Stop playing Madden.



Moss was top 3 receiver with a separated shoulder in 2009. The HC is not "focused" on any one area while ignoring others. The defense is already MOSTLY rebuilt. Edelman is going to be productive. There's no way you can determine now that Welker is "effectively done" for the 2010 season. The running game is not abysmal (4.1 YPC as a whole). There is an entire offseason of free agency and draft to improve and find receiver depth. We had a top 5 offense in 2009, stop whining as if we are bottom of the league.

"Had no one else" - - gee we wonder why.

So, if #1 TE and #1 RB(at least on paper) are supposed to block, then what is the OL responsiblity ? I guess Watson & Brown are strictly blockers. Heck, why bother to have TE then, just sign couple of OL

Wow, 4.1 YPC.......show me one RB the other team feared on Pats ? Taylor ? Maroney with his 700yd season ? or the 30+ something Faulk & Morris

ACL = 9-12 months. Unless you wre in time warp we all saw inconsistencies of a certain QB who came back after ACL. Furthermore, Welker is a WR that counts on his "cuts". If you think he will be back before mid season, if at all, then pass me the hash brownies your eating

Go check how many catches out of backfield Maroney had.....as for his blocking prowess, we saw that on display in playoff game vs Ravens, a certiable way to get Brady killed.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

I'd say Aiken was just about the same receiver he was anywhere else he's been. Don't mistake more opportunity/snaps with increased performance.

Up until he made that insane grab in Miami, he was one of the worst receivers in the league in DVOA. I think he still remains pretty low and had a terrible catch rate. The guy has just brutal hands and can't get separation.

The kind of catches Pierre Garcon makes, Sam Aiken misses, and might even result in an INT. That's the thing that kills me about this season - Manning is getting props for throwing passes through the needle that his receivers hold onto. Brady throws similar passes to Galloway or Aiken, and they were getting dropped, or worse, picked off. 2 of the 3 picks Brady threw in the Baltimore game are routine catches we saw the Colts and Saints making. That's why they were playing into February and we weren't.

We need actual NFL caliber wide receivers. And we need 4-5 like we used to. If we could carry 5 pure wideouts in 2003 & 2004, why can't we carry 4-5 pure wideouts in 2007-2010, when we spread it out 50% of the time?

As for O'Brien, I'll be cautiously optimistic that he gets better, but I think he had a tough year trying to fill McD's shoes, and a huge part of that blame is on the personnel. But he doesn't get a free pass. Just look at how often we got delay of games or Brady had a burn a timeout b/c the play wasn't in. He was a rookie NFL OC and made rookie mistakes. The fact that Belichick did not give him the title of OC after this season when I believe McD had earned that title in one year does not necessarily reflect well. I could be mistaken about that fact though, as always, BB is a little cryptic with that stuff.

This offense was one of the best in the league this year, but it should be THE best, and it should be putting up 35 points a game. All it needs is two more legitimate wide receivers and less predictability on offense.

I am also cautiously optimistic about O'Brien. The one plus was that before Welker went down, the play calling vastly improved over the last month of the season. I didn't think he did a great job, but he was a rookie signal caller and he was not given the best talent to work with after Brady, Moss, and Welker.

 

[Rob0729]

Exactly my point ! All these clowns want to focus is on Aiken. WGAS(Who gives a sh**) about Aiken. The root issue is outside of Moss or Welker this team had zip focus to involve anyone else in the offense. That responsibility is on the OC & HC.

If the team simply wants to live & die by Moss & Welker, then fine, it makes no difference just fill the roster out with likes of Aiken, Stanbeck, Slater, over the hill Fred Taylor and Galloway's, and underutilize or do not find creative ways to get likes of Watson, Maroney into the Offense. In that case as the HC says....You are who you are, turning into a one dimensional mediocre team.

2010 will be interesting to see what "Offenseive Strategy" will the team develop as Moss will be another year older, and Welker is effectively done for 2010 season and cannot be expected to make strong contribution. So, running game is abysmal with focus to develop OL to help Maroney, and TE are invisible and likely Watson is gone.....While all this is going on the HC is focusing to rebuild the Defense.

In fairness to the team, Taylor got an injury very early in the season after showing some signs of being a good lead RB. Galloway ended up being a mistake, but everyone in the world thought the guy was going to be an excellent #3 WR until the season actually started. Matt Light went down for a number of games. So did Neal. Koppen got old quick. There were many issues beyond the team's control.

Belichick is not going to ignore the offense. He is going to be more involved in the defense. Big difference. He will work on the offseason to fix the holes on the team and still will be actively involved in the offense all season.

 

[emoney_33]

"Had no one else" - - gee we wonder why.

Because they had an unusually bad string of events. They let Gaffney go, Lewis and Galloway failed, Tate got hurt and Nunn got nabbed. None of these were terrible decisions or a lack of trying. They just ALL happen to work out against the team

So, if #1 TE and #1 RB(at least on paper) are supposed to block, then what is the OL responsiblity ? I guess Watson & Brown are strictly blockers. Heck, why bother to have TE then, just sign couple of OL

The TE's receiving responsibilities are lower on the priority list than his blocking. The OL had some injury issues and inconsistencies, requiring more out of the additional blocking. I also don't know who Brown is and Baker isn't a great receiving threat in the first place. I think they definitely should look to get more out of their TE in the passing game than they did in 2009, but we can't definitively say the failure to do so was 100% bad OC.

Wow, 4.1 YPC.......show me one RB the other team feared on Pats ? Taylor ? Maroney with his 700yd season ? or the 30+ something Faulk & Morris

There is no such thing as a team fearing a RB. Total yards is more indicative of opportunity than results. Maroney had 3.9 YPC which is very respectable. We are not going to have a great bruising running game because we don't focus on the run as much as the pass, and rightfully so.

ACL = 9-12 months. Unless you wre in time warp we all saw inconsistencies of a certain QB who came back after ACL. Furthermore, Welker is a WR that counts on his "cuts". If you think he will be back before mid season, if at all, then pass me the hash brownies your eating

I have no idea when he'll be back, each human being and each athlete is different. A rough estimate is meaningless. Philip Rivers started practicing 3 months after his ACL surgery (yeah I know he's a QB and the differences, but point remains every specific case is unique). Mayo came back extraordinarily quickly from his MCL injury, albeit at less than 100%. Even if he's back by midseason that's different than your guarantee of being done for 2010.

Go check how many catches out of backfield Maroney had.....as for his blocking prowess, we saw that on display in playoff game vs Ravens, a certiable way to get Brady killed.

This has been thoroughly debated. Maroney did the one and only thing he could have and should have done which was using Lewis' momentum and redirect him to Brady's non-throwing side. Brady must have really wanted something on the left side and spun around to the left right into the re-directed Lewis.

Maroney is NOT a great blocker by any stretch of the imagination, but he did the right thing on that particular play.