Are we not as far as we originally thought?

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

uhhhh NO

Like no int in Miami or hitting Welker in Denver.

A collection of plays throughout the entire game made those plays matter. Is this really a difficult concept? You cannot isolate one or two plays and expect the entire game to be the same with a different player in that game. It's stupid to argue 1 or 2 plays when those 1 or 2 plays are only meaningful with respect to the entire game's worth of plays. If the rest of the game the Patriots scored 50 points, those plays suddenly don't matter as much. It's all relative.

And no I don't expect 2007. What can be expected is better strings of sustained drives. This will come from full recuperation, full off season of fundamentals and hours of work with receivers.

26.7 PPG, so what do you expect? I mean yeah I'm shooting for closer to 30 PPG next season, but I don't consider ~27 a failure. 26.7 PPG is still a really good year.

Why are you so defensive? He played better than any QB could be expected to play and w/o the Weler injury would most likely have had a great playoff.

I'm not defensive, but people have some odd memories of Brady as if he were perfect. I'm trying to temper the expectations to normal levels. Take 2007 away from the books and no one is claiming 26.7 PPG was a year of offensive struggles.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Right I don't frequently back up all my debates with facts, rather I just go poking around looking for a fight

I as well as other people would disagree with that...

Sam Aiken.... SAM AIKEN. You are arguing that SAM FRIGGIN AIKEN should have gotten more attention.

Considering he was our 3rd WR and Moss and Welker were the focus of the defenses attention, yeah I think he should have gotten more attention. As demonstrated by teams in the playoffs you need to have depth at the WR position to be successful. It was very clear this year that you cant win games with only having 2 producing WR's. We needed to get the ball to other guys besides Moss and Welker.

He CANNOT get open, it doesn't matter what play you call. Did you WATCH the Ravens game? They tried to get him the ball, and it resulted in interceptions all the way to 24-0. You live in a fantasy world. We didn't have a lot of offensive struggles this season. Sam Aiken is NOT a viable 3rd option, you can continue to pretend that the Colts would have made him more than he is but the only reason he stuck around was for his special teams contributions.

Well in the Ravens game I dont think Sam Aiken had anything to do with the score being 24-0. 83 yard run, 7-0. Brady failure to step up, strip sack leads to a TD, 14-0. Tipped ball INT leads to TD 21-0, Brady rolling out bad decision INT, leads to FG, 24-0. Brady made a poor pass and a bad decision, they werent Aiken's fault. Look at what the Colts did with Austin Collie, he went to BYU and the Colts made him into one of the best rookies in the league this year. The Pats could have made Aiken into a decent 3rd WR that could make teams pay for doubling Moss and Welker, the play calling just wasnt good enough to allow him to do that. Stallworth, Gaffney, Caldwell, were they that much more talented than Aiken? I dont think so.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

I said that because you love looking for fights on here...

Maybe the reason Aiken didnt get open because of the plays that were called...the Patriots didnt get the most out of some of their offensive players this year. Aiken, Maroney and Watson come to mind. I think that the lack of a good OC was the reason for this. The play calling was awful all season long, way too predictable.

I strongly believe that if Aiken was in place of Garcon he would have put up the same numbers because Manning/Moore know how to get the most out of their players. They call plays based off of their strengths. When O'Brien knew that Welker and Moss would be doubled he could have called plays to get the ball to Aiken, he is a big strong physical WR. He could be a decent 3rd WR if he was used correctly. The biggest reason for the offensive struggles this year was because of the lack of an OC and I really hope BB address it this off season

You do realize that Aiken had more yards and TDs this year than he had his entire five years combined in Buffalo or last year with the Pats? What are you talking about? The Pats got more out of Aiken this year than anyone has gotten out of him in his six previous years in the NFL. Aiken is what he is and on any other team, he might not even see the field. I was shock how good he played this year since he is a very limited receiver.

Aiken for his 7 year career has 47 catches for 677 yards and 2 TDs of which 20 receptions 326 yards and 2 TDs came this year. And you think he could have gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs in Indy where in seven years in the NFL he hasn't gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs for his entire career? Really?!? Apparently Aiken has sucked as a WR for nearly a decade because he knew Bill O'Brien was going to be his OC in 2009. Seriously, a seven year veteran who's career year is 326 yards and 2 TDs and you think his production was the fault of the OC?

BTW, Julian Edelman was the Pats #3 WR for most of the season and he caught a respectable 37 balls.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

You do realize that Aiken had more yards and TDs this year than he had his entire five years combined in Buffalo or last year with the Pats? What are you talking about? The Pats got more out of Aiken this year than anyone has gotten out of him in his six previous years in the NFL. Aiken is what he is and on any other team, he might not even see the field. I was shock how good he played this year since he is a very limited receiver.

Aiken for his 7 year career has 47 catches for 677 yards and 2 TDs of which 20 receptions 326 yards and 2 TDs came this year. And you think he could have gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs in Indy where in seven years in the NFL he hasn't gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs for his entire career? Really?!? Apparently Aiken has sucked as a WR for nearly a decade because he knew Bill O'Brien was going to be his OC in 2009. Seriously, a seven year veteran who's career year is 326 yards and 2 TDs and you think his production was the fault of the OC?

BTW, Julian Edelman was the Pats #3 WR for most of the season and he caught a respectable 37 balls.

While I agree with your sentiments about Aiken, Edelman's numbers are deceiving. He caught the majority (21 of 37) of his receptions playing in place of Welker, in the 3 games Wes missed (Jets/Falcons/Texans). That means that he caught 16 passes as the backup to Wes/WR3/WR4 combo.

That really emphasizes just how bad Aiken was. 6 games as a backup to Wes/WR3/WR4, and conversion project rookie Edelman had just 4 fewer catches than Aiken came up with in his 12 games.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

You do realize that Aiken had more yards and TDs this year than he had his entire five years combined in Buffalo or last year with the Pats? What are you talking about? The Pats got more out of Aiken this year than anyone has gotten out of him in his six previous years in the NFL. Aiken is what he is and on any other team, he might not even see the field. I was shock how good he played this year since he is a very limited receiver.

Aiken for his 7 year career has 47 catches for 677 yards and 2 TDs of which 20 receptions 326 yards and 2 TDs came this year. And you think he could have gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs in Indy where in seven years in the NFL he hasn't gotten 765 yards and 4 TDs for his entire career? Really?!? Apparently Aiken has sucked as a WR for nearly a decade because he knew Bill O'Brien was going to be his OC in 2009. Seriously, a seven year veteran who's career year is 326 yards and 2 TDs and you think his production was the fault of the OC?

BTW, Julian Edelman was the Pats #3 WR for most of the season and he caught a respectable 37 balls.

Aiken was never a WR before this year so obviously that is why his numbers were so low. He was a special teams player only in his NFL career until this year. You cant really use his numbers because he was never a full time WR until this year.

If Aiken took the place of Garcon on the Colts I can guarantee you he would have had 765+ yards and 4+ TDs. The Manning/Moore combo gets the most out of the the players that they have. I think Aiken could have definitely produced more this season with a better OC. It was the play calling as a whole, being very predictable, inconsistent, etc that effected the whole offense. I would like to see the numbers that Brady threw to WR's and TE's other than Moss and Welker. The passing plays were so focused on Moss and Welker that I think the Pats couldnt imply their usual spreading of the passing game to many WR's and TE's. For us to be successful next season, along with adding 1 or 2 new WR's we need to get more players involved in the passing game. It was clearly shown this postseason that you need a deep WR core to win in this league.

 

[NHPATSFAN11]

WILL SOMEONE START A DRAFT THREAD!
It's time to get the rumors flying around, how else am I supposed to procrastinate with all the other constructive shizzy I should be doing in my life!

 

[Joker]

try the draft forum....

Patriots Draft Talk - New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Aiken was never a WR before this year so obviously that is why his numbers were so low. He was a special teams player only in his NFL career until this year. You cant really use his numbers because he was never a full time WR until this year.

If Aiken took the place of Garcon on the Colts I can guarantee you he would have had 765+ yards and 4+ TDs. The Manning/Moore combo gets the most out of the the players that they have. I think Aiken could have definitely produced more this season with a better OC. It was the play calling as a whole, being very predictable, inconsistent, etc that effected the whole offense. I would like to see the numbers that Brady threw to WR's and TE's other than Moss and Welker. The passing plays were so focused on Moss and Welker that I think the Pats couldnt imply their usual spreading of the passing game to many WR's and TE's. For us to be successful next season, along with adding 1 or 2 new WR's we need to get more players involved in the passing game. It was clearly shown this postseason that you need a deep WR core to win in this league.

LOL! Yes, Aiken was far too important as a special teamer in his first six years that they didn't want to use him on offense eventhough he was a solid WR. Are you really serious?!? Do you think pure special team players do not contribute on offense or defense because they are too valuable as special teamer? Do you really not understand that pure special team players are that because they are not good enough to play offense or defense, but are good at coverage, returning, or another special teams activities?

The reason why Aiken was never a WR until this year was because he sucked at it. He would never produce Garcon numbers because he sucks so bad at WR that he couldn't even get on the field on offense. If it wasn't for Galloway washing out as the Pats #3 WR and Tate going to IR, Aiken wouldn't have seen the field this year either.

I thought the play calling was not great this year, but part of the problem was that the Pats had only two legitimate WRs on the roster. Edelman looks like he will develop into a decent to good WR, but he is learning the position. Aiken has probably peaked for his career as a WR in 2009 whether he continues for the Pats or goes onto another team even if it is the Colts. If Aiken is the Pats #3 WR next season, the offense is in trouble and it has nothing to do with the coordinator. Aiken should never be higher than your fifth WR, maybe your fourth due to injuries. He should never have more than 5-10 catches a year. He overachieved this year.

Sorry, Aiken is not a second or third year player. He is a seventh year player going into his eight year. If he was capable of getting 765 yards and 4 TDs in a season, he would have at least gotten close by now. He hasn't even reached that mark in his seven year career (he has 677 yards and 2 TDs for his career). And prior to this year, he had 4 starts (2 with the Pats and 2 with the Bills).

If your best argument against Bill O'Brien is that Aiken didn't get 765 plus yards and 4 plus TDs this season, you have no argument at all. It would take Aiken nearly a decade to get that kind of production. The guy is 29 years old.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Well in the Ravens game I dont think Sam Aiken had anything to do with the score being 24-0. 83 yard run, 7-0. Brady failure to step up, strip sack leads to a TD, 14-0. Tipped ball INT leads to TD 21-0, Brady rolling out bad decision INT, leads to FG, 24-0. Brady made a poor pass and a bad decision, they werent Aiken's fault. Look at what the Colts did with Austin Collie, he went to BYU and the Colts made him into one of the best rookies in the league this year. The Pats could have made Aiken into a decent 3rd WR that could make teams pay for doubling Moss and Welker, the play calling just wasnt good enough to allow him to do that. Stallworth, Gaffney, Caldwell, were they that much more talented than Aiken? I dont think so.

Right, it's more logical to assume it was Brady's fault rather than Aiken's fault. Aiken has earned the benefit of the doubt and we have ALL the information by watching the game on TV. I mean I guess.

The fact that you just said "I don't think so" about Stalworth, Gaffney and Caldwell being much more talented than Aiken tells me ALL I need to know about you. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

LOL! Yes, Aiken was far too important as a special teamer in his first six years that they didn't want to use him on offense eventhough he was a solid WR. Are you really serious?!? Do you think pure special team players do not contribute on offense or defense because they are too valuable as special teamer? Do you really not understand that pure special team players are that because they are not good enough to play offense or defense, but are good at coverage, returning, or another special teams activities?

The reason why Aiken was never a WR until this year was because he sucked at it. He would never produce Garcon numbers because he sucks so bad at WR that he couldn't even get on the field on offense. If it wasn't for Galloway washing out as the Pats #3 WR and Tate going to IR, Aiken wouldn't have seen the field this year either.

I thought the play calling was not great this year, but part of the problem was that the Pats had only two legitimate WRs on the roster. Edelman looks like he will develop into a decent to good WR, but he is learning the position. Aiken has probably peaked for his career as a WR in 2009 whether he continues for the Pats or goes onto another team even if it is the Colts. If Aiken is the Pats #3 WR next season, the offense is in trouble and it has nothing to do with the coordinator. Aiken should never be higher than your fifth WR, maybe your fourth due to injuries. He should never have more than 5-10 catches a year. He overachieved this year.

Sorry, Aiken is not a second or third year player. He is a seventh year player going into his eight year. If he was capable of getting 765 yards and 4 TDs in a season, he would have at least gotten close by now. He hasn't even reached that mark in his seven year career (he has 677 yards and 2 TDs for his career). And prior to this year, he had 4 starts (2 with the Pats and 2 with the Bills).

If your best argument against Bill O'Brien is that Aiken didn't get 765 plus yards and 4 plus TDs this season, you have no argument at all. It would take Aiken nearly a decade to get that kind of production. The guy is 29 years old.

lol, I'm still shocked that we have to spend so many words explaining to this guy that Aiken is NOT good. The guarantee of at least 765 yard comment was priceless lol

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Right, it's more logical to assume it was Brady's fault rather than Aiken's fault. Aiken has earned the benefit of the doubt and we have ALL the information by watching the game on TV. I mean I guess.

Dude, you're like a 6th grade girl...is that honestly the best you could come up with? Going back to an argument that was last week?

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Right, it's more logical to assume it was Brady's fault rather than Aiken's fault. Aiken has earned the benefit of the doubt and we have ALL the information by watching the game on TV. I mean I guess.

Well, Brady is only a future HOF Qb who may be the greatest of all time while Aiken is a career special teamer (which obviously means he is too good as a WR to actually play WR). How could you not put all the blame on Brady?

And btw, yes, Stallworth, Gaffney, and Caldwell were worlds better than Aiken. All three had decent seasons as WRs on other teams other than the Pats. Stallworth had 945 yards and 7 TDs in 2005 with the Saints with Aaron Brooks throwing to him. Gaffney had 732 yards and 2 TDs with Kyle Orton throwing to him this past season as a #3 WR (and also McDaniels was calling the plays for Aiken last year and only got 101 yards and no TDs out of him). So both those players had seasons on other teams that were better than Aiken's entire career. Caldwell had better years in San Deigo with a whole host of different QBs than Aiken had this year with Brady throwing to him. Besides Caldwell was a primary WR in 2006.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Dude, you're like a 6th grade girl...is that honestly the best you could come up with? Going back to an argument that was last week?

Based on this comment, I am now certain you are a high schooler and will adjust my discussions with you accordingly.

Brady rolling out bad decision INT, leads to FG, 24-0. Brady made a poor pass and a bad decision, they werent Aiken's fault.

You just posted this 2 hours ago, but I guess commenting on it has something to do with last week...

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Aiken could have been used more this season. I am not saying he could have put up huge numbers, but he could have produced a lot more than he did and been more of a factor. The lack of a 3rd WR was a major issue for the Pats this season. I am using Manning/Moore as an example of how they get the most out of their players. The WR's that they have are made so much better because of Manning/Moore. Collie/Garcon arent on the same level as Aiken, but its the concept I am talking about. With a decent OC Aiken could have been made into a quality 3rd WR that contributed more than he did this season. That is all that I am saying, not that Aiken is some super star. Do you think that 20 catches, 326 yards and 2 TD's is all that Aiken is worth? He showed some flashes that he could be decent like his catch and run vs TB, and the whole 2nd Miami game.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Based on this comment, I am now certain you are a high schooler and will adjust my discussions with you accordingly.



You just posted this 2 hours ago, but I guess commenting on it has something to do with last week...

You automatically assume that you are right though. How were those Aiken's fault? I dont know what play was called but I do know that Brady was the one that threw the pass and that is the only thing that we have proof of.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Aiken could have been used more this season. I am not saying he could have put up huge numbers, but he could have produced a lot more than he did and been more of a factor.

Wrong, that is exactly what you are saying. 765 yards for a 3rd receiver is HUGE numbers. Only 42 receivers in a 32 team league had more than 765 yards last season.

The lack of a 3rd WR was a major issue for the Pats this season. I am using Manning/Moore as an example of how they get the most out of their players.

The Patriots could have gotten that much out of Garcon too. He actually has ability, unlike Aiken. You are delusional.

The WR's that they have are made so much better because of Manning/Moore. Collie/Garcon arent on the same level as Aiken, but its the concept I am talking about.

There is no concept, other than the fact that Aiken is a bad wide receiver. So bad that he shouldn't even have a single reception in non-blowout situations. So bad that he wouldn't be on ANY team's practice squad if he weren't a very good special teams player.

With a decent OC Aiken could have been made into a quality 3rd WR that contributed more than he did this season. That is all that I am saying, not that Aiken is some super star.

But you are wrong. Aiken is bad, let it go.

Do you think that 20 catches, 326 yards and 2 TD's is all that Aiken is worth? He showed some flashes that he could be decent like his catch and run vs TB, and the whole 2nd Miami game.

No actually I think 20 receptions, 326 yards and 2 TD's is miraculous for his lack of talent. He can't get open! His best play was a once-in-a-million circus catch while being covered pretty easily. He had a lower than 50% catch rate.

There are valid criticisms of the OC this year but not getting more out of Aiken is NOT a valid criticism. It's just foolish to even make that argument and shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

You automatically assume that you are right though. How were those Aiken's fault? I dont know what play was called but I do know that Brady was the one that threw the pass and that is the only thing that we have proof of.

I assume that BRADY was right, not me. Get over this personal issue you have, honestly. Get OVER IT.

I have a ton of reasons to give Brady the benefit of the doubt over Aiken. For you to even suggest otherwise is ridiculous and shows a NEMite syndrome.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

I assume that BRADY was right, not me. Get over this personal issue you have, honestly. Get OVER IT.

I have a ton of reasons to give Brady the benefit of the doubt over Aiken. For you to even suggest otherwise is ridiculous and shows a NEMite syndrome.

Here you go again, now your love for Tom Brady is getting in the way of thinking rationally about the situation. What evidence is there that those INT's were Aikens fault? Your reasoning is that Brady is a better player than Aiken so therefore its Aikens fault.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Aiken could have been used more this season. I am not saying he could have put up huge numbers, but he could have produced a lot more than he did and been more of a factor. The lack of a 3rd WR was a major issue for the Pats this season. I am using Manning/Moore as an example of how they get the most out of their players. The WR's that they have are made so much better because of Manning/Moore. Collie/Garcon arent on the same level as Aiken, but its the concept I am talking about. With a decent OC Aiken could have been made into a quality 3rd WR that contributed more than he did this season. That is all that I am saying, not that Aiken is some super star. Do you think that 20 catches, 326 yards and 2 TD's is all that Aiken is worth? He showed some flashes that he could be decent like his catch and run vs TB, and the whole 2nd Miami game.

How many OCs has Aiken had over the years? Four or five and none of them made him into half of the receiver that O'Brien did. IMHO McDaniels is a great OC and he didn't.

As for the comparisons to Garcon and Collie, you have no idea if they are being coached up in Indy or they are just diamonds in the rough type of players. Plenty of WRs have come out of nowhere to become great WRs. Marques Colston was a 7th round pick and was a solid starter right off the bat. Wes Welker was undrafted and he led the league in receptions this year. Miles Austin was undrafted. All these guys emerged within their first three or so years as a Pro. Aiken is in his seventh season and could be out of football all together in a year or two.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Are we not as far as we originallly thought?

Here you go again, now your love for Tom Brady is getting in the way of thinking rationally about the situation. What evidence is there that those INT's were Aikens fault? Your reasoning is that Brady is a better player than Aiken so therefore its Aikens fault.

benefit of the doubt - Wiktionary