Are we fast enough in the defensive backfield?

[JackBauer]

Speed is not a huge deal with either our secondary or LB corp. Bruschi, Phifer, and McGinest were never fast. All of them had great intelligence, instinct, and a nose for the ball. What we need in our LB corp is size, intelligence, versatility, and instincts. Speed and even athleticism are secondary. In fact, usually to be speedy, you have to smaller and that is a detriment at ILB because of the fact that they have to take guards head on at times. That is why Beisel was such a huge disapointment. He had speed, but he could get nuetralized pretty easily with a guard.

Right, but we always had a cover LB in Phifer, which we have been lacking since (and this has become more apparent as Bruschi's play has declined).

Beason would fill his role well, I'd think. AD can probably fulfill that role as well; I suppose it all depends on how they plan on using him primarily.

 

[lutontown_fc]

Let's not get started. I think the VAST majority of Pats and Colts fans thought the refs did NOT determine any outcomes. The grabbing of D. Clarks left arm as he's going up for a TD pass from Manning was a NICE GIFT to Pats fan, as the next play, the no call on Wayne was made, resulting in a FG to end the half. Go look at the tape, and report back please.

Stop trying to drag the thread off topic please. I'd rather this didn't degenrate into some dumb thread from Indystar - much obliged.

 

[DW Toys]

That was unfortunate for Caldwell, I saw that grab in the endzone from California. The refs were standing right there looking at the play and didn't call anything. In big games, if a player isn't a big name, he probably won't get the call.

I would bet everything I own that if that was Harrison or Wayne, It would have looked like the Chinese laundry exploded. If that call wasn't made, Pollian strangles the nearest NFL supervisor official. By far the most game changing play to prevent the Pats from reaching the SB with under three minutes the ball is on the Colts one. No Super bowl for Peyton, period!
The league and the refs tried to give Peyton his ring in 2005 with the call on Polamalu.They couldn't get it right. No one really mentions this play as the key play in 2006. The announcers were shocked.

DW Toys

 

[He Ban Me]

Stop trying to drag the thread off topic please. I'd rather this didn't degenrate into some dumb thread from Indystar - much obliged.

Hey no problem, as long as you tell that to THIS guy:

Cb's did well inm the playoffs. If Gay can stay healthy we are OK Wilson has good speed, Sanders adequate. The issue in the Colt game was using backups (esp backup LB's) to cover their TE's.

The flu cost us the game.

 

[He Ban Me]

I would bet everything I own that if that was Harrison or Wayne, It would have looked like the Chinese laundry exploded. If that call wasn't made, Pollian strangles the nearest NFL supervisor official. By far the most game changing play to prevent the Pats from reaching the SB with under three minutes the ball is on the Colts one. No Super bowl for Peyton, period!
The league and the refs tried to give Peyton his ring in 2005 with the call on Polamalu.They couldn't get it right. No one really mentions this play as the key play in 2006. The announcers were shocked.

DW Toys

^^^And this guy^^^


Please see the D.Clark mauling in the end zone, ty.

 

[lutontown_fc]

Hey no problem, as long as you tell that to THIS guy:

I don't have to 'tell it to that guy' - 'that guy' is a Patriots fan discussing the need for speed in the defensive backfield using historical examples.

You are a Colts fan looking to relive the AFCCG.

Do it somewhere else.

 

[Rob0729]

Right, but we always had a cover LB in Phifer, which we have been lacking since (and this has become more apparent as Bruschi's play has declined).

Beason would fill his role well, I'd think. AD can probably fulfill that role as well; I suppose it all depends on how they plan on using him primarily.

Phifer was never speedy though. He was physical, smart, and instinctual.

Beason seems a little small for our syatem, but maybe he can add five to ten pounds before training camp.

 

[He Ban Me]

I don't have to 'tell it to that guy' - 'that guy' is a Patriots fan discussing the need for speed in the defensive backfield using historical examples.

You are a Colts fan looking to relive the AFCCG.

Do it somewhere else.

"that guy" is the guy who brought up the GD flu in the FIRST PLACE. Look at the order of the posts, crybabies.

As for the backfield, wasn't it Sanders who caught LT from behind? Hobbs and Samuel played phenominal in the AFCCG, they didn't look slow to me, although most of the tips were on plays either in the end zone, or where the ball was slightly under thrown, where the receiver did not have the chance to maintain separation. I don't think I would worry about speed too much.

 

[JackBauer]

Phifer was never speedy though. He was physical, smart, and instinctual.

Beason seems a little small for our syatem, but maybe he can add five to ten pounds before training camp.

He was speedier than anyone we had last year, I'd wager.

 

[Rob0729]

He was speedier than anyone we had last year, I'd wager.

Well, that isn't what the discussion is. It is hard to be faster than Bruschi or Seau.

I agree Phifer is probably our fastest ILB over the last five years or so (Colvin is faster outside). I don't classify him as having great speed or great athleticism though.

 

[Tunescribe]

Speed is not a huge deal with either our secondary or LB corp. Bruschi, Phifer, and McGinest were never fast. All of them had great intelligence, instinct, and a nose for the ball. What we need in our LB corp is size, intelligence, versatility, and instincts. Speed and even athleticism are secondary.

I respectfully disagree. Speed IS important at both linebacker and in the defensive backfield. We're not different from any other team in terms of need there. Sideline-to-sideline (lateral) pursuit is tremendously important at linebacker. And like I noted originally, our defensive backs have struggled tracking down receivers who catch the ball downfield. Yes, our guys have compensated somewhat for lack of physical skills by being "heady" players, but I think our need to speed up things at linebacker and DB is pretty obvious.

 

[Seneschal2]

Well, there's 'football fast', and 'straight line' speed. And then there's arriving on time because of smarts, and arriving late because of .

Overall, the Pats want smart players who have enough speed to play their positions. Anything less than that probably won't survive the cuts.

If just speed is the concern, then here's some numbers:

CB
Blue Gay - 4.38
Ellis Hobbs - 4.45
Asante Samuel - 4.49

S
Eugene Wilson - 4.48
James Sanders - 4.62

Now in this draft, we'll most likely draft a Safety, and a CB too. Some of the 40 times of these prospects will certainly add some speed to the secondary. Of course we have to weed out the smart ones, the solid tacklers, the high character guys, and the good football players:

CB
Aaron Ross - 4.44
Chris Houston - 4.32
Jonathan Wade - 4.36/4.44
Marcus McCauley - 4.39
Josh Wilson - 4.39
A.J. Davis - 4.3+

S
Reggie Nelson - 4.48/4.35
Michael Griffin - 4.45/4.40
Josh Gattis - 4.51/4.47
Sabby Piscitelli - 4.47/4.43
John Wendling - 4.48/4.48

 

[Rob0729]

I respectfully disagree. Speed IS important at both linebacker and in the defensive backfield. We're not different from any other team in terms of need there. Sideline-to-sideline (lateral) pursuit is tremendously important at linebacker. And like I noted originally, our defensive backs have struggled tracking down receivers who catch the ball downfield. Yes, our guys have compensated somewhat for lack of physical skills by being "heady" players, but I think our need to speed up things at linebacker and DB is pretty obvious.

Speed and size usually don't go together at LB. Size is far more important to the Patriots at LB than speed. Lateral speed is far less important in the 3-4 than the 4-3 because most of the time ILBs have about half the field to cover than a MLB in a 4-3. Under Belichick when have never had a LB with great lateral speed because to get a guy like that, you usaully have to sacrifice size. That's why a Lance Briggs would never work in our system.

All due respect, but if you think we need speed at LBs like say a Cover 2 defense would, you need to learn a little more about defenses in the NFL. A defense like the Cover 2, speed is far more important at LB because the safeties play so far off the line that the LBs (in particular the MLB) has so much more field to cover and must play coverage over the center of the field more. That is why teams like the Colts, Bears, Tampa, etc. go after smaller and faster LBs where we go after bigger LBs, many of which have been converted DEs (which means they clearly aren't fast). We go after converted DEs for LBs (Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest) and Cover 2 teams go after converted safeties for LBs (Cato June, Brian Urlacher).

I do think we need to speed things up at LB just because it was really slow even for us. But speed as a skill should be low on a priority when selecting a LB. Size, smarts, instinct, and versatility are still more important.

As for CBs, speed is important, I don't want to get into a whole comparison of a zone vs. man-to-man coverage or a press zone like we like to run. But even there speed is less important than other skills (hence why we were looking at Tory James a week ago). But instict, mechanics, physicality, and quickness rather than speed are more important speed itself.

Each type of defense needs different skill sets and our defense makes speed less of a priority. In contrast, Tony Dungy's Tampa 2 makes speed the biggest priority.

 

[Tunescribe]

I do think we need to speed things up at LB just because it was really slow even for us. As for CBs, speed is important ...

Thanks for coming around to seeing things my way.

 

[Rob0729]

Thanks for coming around to seeing things my way.

Well, I said we need incrrease in speed, but think speed is not that important at those positions. So I really didn't come around to seeing things your way. If we had a choice between a big smart, instinctual LB with average speed or a small, fast LB with just natural talent; more likely than not I'd go after the big LB. He fits our system more and size, smarts, and instincts are far more important than speed.

 

[skaIownsIyou]

Not only do we need some fresh blood, but we need a playmaker as well. I really hope S Reggie Nelson is available at #24 because all he does is make plays. If not, taking Griffin at #24 or #28 would be great as well. Also, I think the Pats should draft either a cornerback or T (Joe Staley-if available). I really like Chris Houston from Arkansas because of the fact he shut down some of the best prospects in the country, he's fast (4.38 40 time) and is really strong for his size. I watched the game between USC-Arkansas and Houston caught my eye because 1. He was swatting everything thrown to Jarrett and Jarrett manhandles every corner that he plays against and 2. Houston has a swagger that would fit in nicely with our secondary. If the Pats can re-sign Samuel and draft Houston, the Pats would have a pretty good looking secondary.

My updated withlist for the Pats:

Ideal draft:

#24 S Reggie Nelson
#28 CB Chris Houston (I think the Jets may take him at #25)

Good draft:

#24 CB Chris Houston
#28 S Michael Griffin

I just don't understand why mock drafts have the Pats taking either Jon Beason or the Paul guy from Penn State (I don't want to spell his last name). They both play outside LB and are undersized to play the 3-4. In my opinion, I think the Pats should take care of the secondary in round 1 and try to trade up in round two for ILB David Harris.

smartman right here

i like reggie nelson, and houston is faaast...i think he had a 4.31 in his 40 and nelson not sure what he had

 

[skaIownsIyou]

Speed and size usually don't go together at LB. Size is far more important to the Patriots at LB than speed. Lateral speed is far less important in the 3-4 than the 4-3 because most of the time ILBs have about half the field to cover than a MLB in a 4-3. Under Belichick when have never had a LB with great lateral speed because to get a guy like that, you usaully have to sacrifice size. That's why a Lance Briggs would never work in our system.

All due respect, but if you think we need speed at LBs like say a Cover 2 defense would, you need to learn a little more about defenses in the NFL. A defense like the Cover 2, speed is far more important at LB because the safeties play so far off the line that the LBs (in particular the MLB) has so much more field to cover and must play coverage over the center of the field more. That is why teams like the Colts, Bears, Tampa, etc. go after smaller and faster LBs where we go after bigger LBs, many of which have been converted DEs (which means they clearly aren't fast). We go after converted DEs for LBs (Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest) and Cover 2 teams go after converted safeties for LBs (Cato June, Brian Urlacher).

I do think we need to speed things up at LB just because it was really slow even for us. But speed as a skill should be low on a priority when selecting a LB. Size, smarts, instinct, and versatility are still more important.

As for CBs, speed is important, I don't want to get into a whole comparison of a zone vs. man-to-man coverage or a press zone like we like to run. But even there speed is less important than other skills (hence why we were looking at Tory James a week ago). But instict, mechanics, physicality, and quickness rather than speed are more important speed itself.

Each type of defense needs different skill sets and our defense makes speed less of a priority. In contrast, Tony Dungy's Tampa 2 makes speed the biggest priority.

cover 2 is basically a compensation to those players who arent good enough to play in base 3-4 or 4-3 defenses, cover 2 players dont have the instincts and the tacklign ability to keep up and do well in anything but cover 2

b/c in a cover 2 scheme, you let the offense complete the short pass, then you hit the defender short of the 1st down, so having coverage guys at LB with speed is what you need, catch the ball, and have the smaller quicker lber's swarm the receiver....thats why imo you see less solo tackles and a lot of assisted tackles, lbers play the qb, not the receiver, along with more defensed passes and int's, like you said, converted safeties

in a base 3-4 or 4-3, lbers play the receiver, not the qb, so you need instinctive/physical lbers, and again, converted DE's...

thats why you see, even in the db's position, faster defensive players in dungy's tampa2 scheme, only problem is i think, is your front 4

whats so good about dwight freeney and robert mathis? they can get to the QB faster than most other DE tandems,
whats so bad about dwight freeney and robert mathis? since they're not instinctive enough to play in a 3-4 or 4-3, all they know is how to rush the qb, they dotn know how to plug up holes or stop the run...but their faster lb's make up for lack of ability to stop the run....

for a usual runnign play, you have 7 guys on defense in the box, and usually on offense 7 blockers, 5 oline, 1 TE and one 1 FB....on a paper and pencil, the offensive blockers are all on all the defensive tacklers in the box, 7 on 7 ...leaving the HB free to run around...but add the fact that freeney and mathis arent on the field to stop the run, but to sack the qb, that just make the opponents running game a lot more effective...

thats why the colts run defense was so bad lsat year, BUT with a safety like a bob sanders, running into the box, now you have 8 defenders in the box against the 7 offensive blockers....8 on 7...its easier to shut down the run

without the instinctive bob sanders runnign in to the box, colts gave up like 250 rushing yards a game, with sanders, probably average under 100 a game

 

[DW Toys]

Let's not get started. I think the VAST majority of Pats and Colts fans thought the refs did NOT determine any outcomes. The grabbing of D. Clarks left arm as he's going up for a TD pass from Manning was a NICE GIFT to Pats fan, as the next play, the no call on Wayne was made, resulting in a FG to end the half. Go look at the tape, and report back please.

This thread all started about DB speed and how it affected us in the playoff with the Colts. Yes it hurt but the officiating was sub par and every Colts and Pat fan knows it. I beg to differ sir on you comment about the outcomes. Pollian went to the league to change the rules when he could not win when people were physical on his players. He personally moaned to the point where it changed the league rules with his power in the competition committee. 2005 was tainted but the refs screwed up and couldn't get the Colts in the SB (see Polymalu).
I will swap you the arm on Clark for the Hobbs phantom touch and hence screw up call by the refs, the Brown call and then the worse play of the game, the CALDWELL MUGGING CALL WITH THREE MINUTES THAT CHANGED THE WHOLE OUTCOME OF THE SUPERBOWL. If it was in the first quarter fine.
I am sorry but the Colts win was tainted. Did the Pats deserve to win blowing a big lead to that in a playoff? Sick or not, 2nd stringers or not, they needed to play better so perhaps in the end the Colts deserved it to get Peyton his win and that over with. Point was, you can't have calls like that in a Championship game (all four of them).
The Pats got lucky with the Raiders a few years back, but it was a rule book call. People never talk about the fact that Brady got wacked in the head by the DB on the blitz. Could have been called RTP anyway. Would have made up for the Raiders RTP in 76 I guess.
DW Toys

 

[He Ban Me]

This thread all started about DB speed and how it affected us in the playoff with the Colts. Yes it hurt but the officiating was sub par and every Colts and Pat fan knows it. I beg to differ sir on you comment about the outcomes. Pollian went to the league to change the rules when he could not win when people were physical on his players. He personally moaned to the point where it changed the league rules with his power in the competition committee. 2005 was tainted but the refs screwed up and couldn't get the Colts in the SB (see Polymalu).
I will swap you the arm on Clark for the Hobbs phantom touch and hence screw up call by the refs, the Brown call and then the worse play of the game, the CALDWELL MUGGING CALL WITH THREE MINUTES THAT CHANGED THE WHOLE OUTCOME OF THE SUPERBOWL. If it was in the first quarter fine.
I am sorry but the Colts win was tainted. Did the Pats deserve to win blowing a big lead to that in a playoff? Sick or not, 2nd stringers or not, they needed to play better so perhaps in the end the Colts deserved it to get Peyton his win and that over with. Point was, you can't have calls like that in a Championship game (all four of them).
The Pats got lucky with the Raiders a few years back, but it was a rule book call. People never talk about the fact that Brady got wacked in the head by the DB on the blitz. Could have been called RTP anyway. Would have made up for the Raiders RTP in 76 I guess.
DW Toys

Well, you are the first I have heard from that truely feels NE got screwed. I would like to get all the plays in question straight. The Wayne "no call" would never have happened had the proper call been made on the previous play to Clark. In addition, that score would then have been 21-10 at half. I assume the Brown call was the pick play that during the game, Simms said was the correct call. The replay where they show the overhead shot, and the clear contact? IMO, correct call. The Caldwell call, I was as surprised as you that they didn't call it. However, in light of the NO CALL on WAYNE earlier in the contest, I think the officials drew it even. The thing on that play was, even though Reche reached out and got his hand on the ball, it was clearly overthrown, even had Reche been able to catch it, IMO he's OB. IMO, the official did not feel like the Pats should benefit from a poorly thrown pass. On the other hand, on the SECOND Wayne PI, where (samuel) did the "face guarding" (which is no longer a rule), the officials felt like the ball was on target, Wayne beat his man, the DB was out of position and had made a desparation attempt that illegally impeded the offensive player. IMO, refs did not feel like Pats should benefit, or Colts be penalized on a play that clearly had the DB beat. Tainted? HA, no way.

On the Troy P. play (it has been awhile), I was amazed at that call as well. HOWEVER, the refs have actually been somewhat consistent. He caught the ball, rolled, as he gets up, his knee knocks the ball out, he clearly did not meeet the definition of a "football move", therefore, call was incomplete. Wayne had a long pass at end of half vs. Jax where he caught the ball got two feet down, rolled, ball comes out, grazes turf befor eWayne regain control, they call it INC. More egregious by far than the Troy P. call.

In the end, as I watch, my gut says pick, the RULE says otherwise. In the end, the "tuck"?, THAT was a fumble, but the RULE says otherwise. Sadly, NE took advantage, Colts did not.

As far as speed, I answered that as well. The DBs played very well in AFCCG, speed or no speed, they made the plays. Speed, IMO, is a bit overrated. Look at Fletcher's catch. Wasn't the defender supposedly FASTER in the 40 than Fletch?? Look at guys like Fred Blitnikoff, how was he so successful. Why weren't other burners MORE successful than they were? Willie Gault, Renaldo, and others, why can't they just do a fly pattern down after down and score?

Oops, Polian, I forgot. I guess I don't understand why folks have a problem with the rules being enforced as they were written? If a guy constantly gets mugged (illegally), and it disrupts the play, time and again, what would you expect. Hell, the NFL made it pretty clear that the game wasn't called the way the rules CALL for it to be called. I have a hard time believing that everyone just bows down to Polian, or that he has extra clout because he is on the competition committee.
Common Pats answer is hey, Colts could have done it too. I guess I would say, get someone from the Pats on that same committee if you think it helps so damn much.

 

[Fencer]

The Patriot brass keeps talking about wanting to get younger and faster.

Well, there still isn't a lot of signed-long-term depth of that kind.

So I expect more.

As to whether we NEED more -- well, let's just say it would be very good to have.