Are we better than the 2005 SB team?

[mgteich]

First, I believe that Indy and Cinci are better than anything we faced last year.
------------------------------------------------------------
We are playing without Light, Koppen, Harrison and Gay.

That being said, I believe that we are finally as good a team as the team that won the Super Bowl last year.
------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
Overall - better

THE OFFENSIVE LINE
Sure we've missed Light and Andruzzi. However, Mankins, Kayzur, and Ashworth had made up for the loss, as well as the play of Hochstein at center. The run blocking hasn't been as good, but the pass-blocking has been awesome. The tight ends continue to be a great help as blockers.

THE RECEIVERS
I've been disappointed, although given the YAC's I shouldn't be. I miss David Patten. However, as we go into playoffs, it is good to have all three tight ends and Faulk healthy. They are able receivers. As a whole, the receivers are as good as last year. Branch and Givens have been fine. Hey, I even like Dwight and Davis. Brown and Johnson haven't done much.

THE REST
Brady is haven't another pro-bowl year, and Dillon and Faulk are solid.
----------------------------------------------------------------

DEFENSE
Overall - better
The front seven are the best.

DEFENSIVE LINE
I've been disappointed in the lack of depth. Klecko, Wright and Hill haven't done much, However, the play of our front three #1 picks has been outstanding. Green has been fine as a valuable, well-paid role player.

LINEBACKERS
Many cry and moan about losing Ted Johnson and Phifer. Not me! I'm very well pleased with Colvin outside and Vrabel in. Our four linebackers plus our front three are as good as it gets. And Beisel and Chad Brown are decent backups, providing good depth.

DEFENSIVE BACKS
This is obviously a weakness, but probably no worse than last year. Hawkins has made a huge difference. Hobbs is this year's Gay, and as good as Gay at this time last year. Poteat is better than last year, and Sanders also contributes.
--------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL TEAMS
Overall - better

Vinitieri is healthier. Miller is as good as last year.

Our coverage teams are much better. I'm not sure who is making the difference, but a healthy Chatham, Chad Brown and Beisel sure help.

Our return game isn't much, but it is as good as last year. Dwight was an excellent addition.
-----------------------------------------------------

INTANGIBLES
a work in progress

We'll see. Bruschi seems to have the defense in shape, and Brady the offense. I think we miss both Charlie and Romeo. The defensive backield is almost back, after many weeks of shifting strong safeties each weak. Most importantly, everyone is healthy.
----------------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE

We have about as much chance to go all the way as we did in previous years. To validate this view, go back to postings and media at this time in each of our Super Bowl winning trips. I think you'll find that this team has FEWER deficiencies and FEWER question marks than in past teams.

The real question marks are with our opposition. How good ARE the Colts and the Bengals and even the Bears?

 

[skri65]

Hawkins is by no means a replacement for harrison. Agreed, I think he will do better than stone, but he has yet to really prove himself. Give him the rest of the season to prove himself. Asante has not been playing well. Lets wait and see, but i cant agree that our secondary is nearly as stable as it was last year.

 

[Brownfan80]

Interesting post, but I'll disagree on one minor point. You group Brown's production in with Johnson's.. which if you look at the stats is completely unfair.

Troy Brown is actually having a year that's just as productive as 2003.

His stats are: 36 catches for 435 yards at 12.1 per catch and a long of 71 with 2 TDs.

Johnsons stats for 2005:
4 catches for 67 yards at 16.8 per catch and a long of 55 with 1 TD.

As you can see, all but 12 of his yards came on one catch, leaving the other 3 catches at 4 yards a pop.

As you can tell just from the numbers, those two guys shouldn't be lumped together. Honestly Davis is more in line with Johnson by the numbers, and Dwight is closer to that group than is Brown. Brown is our third leading reciever this season.

 

[mosi]

At this point in time, I think our defense is better than it was last year. I really do. However, our rushing offense was much better last year. I think that is going to hurt us more than anything.

 

[dryheat44]

Right on. The losses of Harrison and Ted Johnson can't be dismissed so easily. The downgrade from Harrison to Hawkins can't be made up. He also allowed us to play more coverages. Now Vrabel has to move inside, which means Willie and Rosey don't get to rotate in to stay fresh. Same for Traylor.

 

[mgteich]

Your point is well taken. As you say, I should have switched Brown and Davis.

Interesting post, but I'll disagree on one minor point. You group Brown's production in with Johnson's.. which if you look at the stats is completely unfair.

Troy Brown is actually having a year that's just as productive as 2003.

His stats are: 36 catches for 435 yards at 12.1 per catch and a long of 71 with 2 TDs.

Johnsons stats for 2005:
4 catches for 67 yards at 16.8 per catch and a long of 55 with 1 TD.

As you can see, all but 12 of his yards came on one catch, leaving the other 3 catches at 4 yards a pop.

As you can tell just from the numbers, those two guys shouldn't be lumped together. Honestly Davis is more in line with Johnson by the numbers, and Dwight is closer to that group than is Brown. Brown is our third leading reciever this season.

 

[mgteich]

We certainly disagree with regard to linebacker reps. I'm very pleased with the amount of reps that Colvin has had. I like the idea of McGuinist and a healthy and much improved Colvin as starters. You prefer them to split reps. I prefer having a Chad Brown as a backup, rather than waste Colvin in such a role. Inside I prefer having Vrabel instead Ted Johnson. I'm Ok with Beisel to provide occasional relief, but I did prefer Phifer. Overall, I prefer this current six in their current roles to last year's group. The primary change in reps is to Colvin replace Ted Johnson's reps. I think that is a plus to the team, certainly not a negative.

I agree with regard to Traylor. I would prefer a veteran backup NT, rather than Wright. But the NT just doen't play that often in any case.

Right on. The losses of Harrison and Ted Johnson can't be dismissed so easily. The downgrade from Harrison to Hawkins can't be made up. He also allowed us to play more coverages. Now Vrabel has to move inside, which means Willie and Rosey don't get to rotate in to stay fresh. Same for Traylor.

 

[dryheat44]

Overall, I prefer this current six in their current roles to last year's group. The primary change in reps is to Colvin replace Ted Johnson's reps. I think that is a plus to the team, certainly not a negative.

Certainly an arguable postion. I preferred the Bruschi - Johnson/Phifer rotation on the inside and the Vrabel/McGinest/Colvin rotation on the outside. But maybe that's because of the results. Certainly our better athletes are on the field more often in this setup, but I think we've moved Vrabel away from some of the things he does best, and set our team up for fourth quarter fatigue, which we'll see when we face teams with good running games. If Chad Brown or TBC could be a viable OLB to spell Willie and Rosey, I'd feel a lot better about it.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

First, I believe that Indy and Cinci are better than anything we faced last year.
------------------------------------------------------------
We are playing without Light, Koppen, Harrison and Gay.

That being said, I believe that we are finally as good a team as the team that won the Super Bowl last year.
------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
Overall - better

THE OFFENSIVE LINE
Sure we've missed Light and Andruzzi. However, Mankins, Kayzur, and Ashworth had made up for the loss, as well as the play of Hochstein at center. The run blocking hasn't been as good, but the pass-blocking has been awesome. The tight ends continue to be a great help as blockers.

THE RECEIVERS
I've been disappointed, although given the YAC's I shouldn't be. I miss David Patten. However, as we go into playoffs, it is good to have all three tight ends and Faulk healthy. They are able receivers. As a whole, the receivers are as good as last year. Branch and Givens have been fine. Hey, I even like Dwight and Davis. Brown and Johnson haven't done much.

THE REST
Brady is haven't another pro-bowl year, and Dillon and Faulk are solid.
----------------------------------------------------------------

DEFENSE
Overall - better
The front seven are the best.

DEFENSIVE LINE
I've been disappointed in the lack of depth. Klecko, Wright and Hill haven't done much, However, the play of our front three #1 picks has been outstanding. Green has been fine as a valuable, well-paid role player.

LINEBACKERS
Many cry and moan about losing Ted Johnson and Phifer. Not me! I'm very well pleased with Colvin outside and Vrabel in. Our four linebackers plus our front three are as good as it gets. And Beisel and Chad Brown are decent backups, providing good depth.

DEFENSIVE BACKS
This is obviously a weakness, but probably no worse than last year. Hawkins has made a huge difference. Hobbs is this year's Gay, and as good as Gay at this time last year. Poteat is better than last year, and Sanders also contributes.
--------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL TEAMS
Overall - better

Vinitieri is healthier. Miller is as good as last year.

Our coverage teams are much better. I'm not sure who is making the difference, but a healthy Chatham, Chad Brown and Beisel sure help.

Our return game isn't much, but it is as good as last year. Dwight was an excellent addition.
-----------------------------------------------------

INTANGIBLES
a work in progress

We'll see. Bruschi seems to have the defense in shape, and Brady the offense. I think we miss both Charlie and Romeo. The defensive backield is almost back, after many weeks of shifting strong safeties each weak. Most importantly, everyone is healthy.
----------------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE

We have about as much chance to go all the way as we did in previous years. To validate this view, go back to postings and media at this time in each of our Super Bowl winning trips. I think you'll find that this team has FEWER deficiencies and FEWER question marks than in past teams.

The real question marks are with our opposition. How good ARE the Colts and the Bengals and even the Bears?

Good analysis of the team by mgteich. I'm a little less sanguine about the Secondary, I think he's giving the O-line a tad more credit than it deserves, I notice he doesn't address the dramatic difference in Dillon's production notwithstanding his injury and I do think that the coverage teams are allowing more yards on runbacks than they did last year. However, all in all, I agree with his assessment that the team is going into the Playoffs strong and ready.

The big intangibles are missing the bye week and having to play all but one game on the road. But, all-in-all, I'd keep my money in pocket if someone asked me to bet against them.

 

[spacecrime]

Hawkins is by no means a replacement for harrison. Agreed, I think he will do better than stone, but he has yet to really prove himself. Give him the rest of the season to prove himself. Asante has not been playing well. Lets wait and see, but i cant agree that our secondary is nearly as stable as it was last year.

??? Our secondary was unstable as hell last year. Earthwind Moreland and Omare Lowe? Troy Brown and Don Davis?

Agree that Hawkins isn't Rodney in run support, but remember he is a cornerback playing SS and his coverage skills are much better than Rodney's. I think Hawkins has pretty much proven himself with his play.

 

[emoney_33]

Right on. The losses of Harrison and Ted Johnson can't be dismissed so easily. The downgrade from Harrison to Hawkins can't be made up. He also allowed us to play more coverages. Now Vrabel has to move inside, which means Willie and Rosey don't get to rotate in to stay fresh. Same for Traylor.

Traylor???

 

[patsfaninpa]

Any speculation on free-agent cb's we might be interested in?
Other than keeping Givens,Vinatieri,S.Neal,Ashworth or Gorin. That's
our big need. I'm sure we will go after a S too. Hell, we tried to sign
John Lynch when Rodney was healthy going into last year.

 

[JR4]

First, I believe that Indy and Cinci are better than anything we faced last year.
------------------------------------------------------------
We are playing without Light, Koppen, Harrison and Gay.

That being said, I believe that we are finally as good a team as the team that won the Super Bowl last year.
...........................................

I agree mgteich 100%.

One additioanl point. With PATs front seven doing a great job in run defense
there isn't as much critical need of secondary run support. Another way to say it is Rodney's absence is not as big a loss because the front seven are
doing a great job at run defense.

Also the secondary is faster than last year with Artrell in there for Harrison.
OK he can't hit like Harrison but he can tackle and he is a saftey that can
cover. Plus BB seems to be impressed in the way he is learning the defense.


l

 

[pats1]

Some people forget how we had some shaky games throughout the season and that it all came together for the playoffs, when it matters. I think the main pieces and philosophies are still intact, for the most part, and that this team will really give it a step up in the playoffs.

Looking at last year...

3 point win over the Colts contigent on a missed field goal.

Close win over the Seahawks.

Close, low-scoring win over the Jets.

Big-time loss to the Steelers.

A Chiefs win where the secondary really collapsed.

Shootout with the Bengals, defense looked putrid.

Horrible loss in Miami.

 

[shakadave]

Agree that Hawkins isn't Rodney in run support, but remember he is a cornerback playing SS and his coverage skills are much better than Rodney's.

I keep hearing this idea, but I respectfully disagree. Others may be able to stay closer to receivers, and run faster than Rodney did, but Rodney knew what the quarterback was going to do before the QB knew it. That's how he got 6 INTs in 6 postseason games. And that ability should be considered part of Rodney's "coverage skills"!

 

[scout]

I keep hearing this idea, but I respectfully disagree. Others may be able to stay closer to receivers, and run faster than Rodney did, but Rodney knew what the quarterback was going to do before the QB knew it. That's how he got 6 INTs in 6 postseason games. And that ability should be considered part of Rodney's "coverage skills"!

Excellent point. I think we tend to get carried away with how this team performs sometimes and forget certain qualities that players like Rodney brought to the table. Six Ints in six games is pretty dominating, and thats not including the licks he handed out. You wonder how many Eagle recievers shuddered when Fred-ex started mouthing off last year. Don't forget TJ's comments about hitting the Colts off the line (they were finished after 2 quarters).
I am holding judgement whether this team is better then last years. I believe Hobbs is an upgrade over Gay (and I really like Gay). The problem is we lose the intangibles in the secondary without Rodney. In spite of that, my bold prediction is that this team plays Chicago in Detroit for the win. I've had my share of doubtful threads for this year's team, but the last three games has enlightened me. Even HBO Inside Football's threesome were talking about "The Patriots" as in fear factor (ok, Marino still wasn't buying). Deal me in, I'm buying for a three-peat and I can't wait to hear Michael Irvin say we are the champs again.

 

[shakadave]

"Are we better than the 2005 SB team?"

Perhaps I can be of some assistance here.

No.

 

[jczxohn1]

Pretty much agree, with the corrections that have been mentioned.

Seymour going in to the post-season healthy is bigger than we have acknowledged.

Traylor's loss is finally being overcome by Vince.

Vrabes is playing as well or better than TJ.

Bruschi is regaining his leadership and is fresh.

Colvin is blossoming as a full time OL.

Gino is settling down and starting to look like himself again.

Hobbs = Gay

ST is not only returning better, there has been overall improvement in penalties.

NEGATIVES

Running game needs more timing. When it faltered, TB was blowing up our screens.

Asante?

Neal?

TE's?

 

[PatsFan37]

The offense has the potential to be better than last year, but it hasn't been consistent enough, especially on the ground, to call it better than last years.

In 2004, just about every game saw Dillon run for 100 yds. That ground game was critical to beating the Colts; not having it is half the reason they beat us this year.

You're right about Seymour, though. Having him healthy for the playoffs is huge. Not having Rodney is equally huge. Rodney turned around both Pittsburgh and Philly on the goal line, once for a runback. He ended both the Colts and Philly games with interceptions. How do you top that?

The defense has picked up a bit and I'm more optimistic, but I'm not ready to call this team better than last year's.

In any event, the measure is simple. They're as good as last year's team if and when they win the big one.