Are The Pats Deeper This Year ?

[arrellbee]

OK. There have been a LOT of discussions about how folks are picking the 53 and the various tradeoffs. One thing that stands out is that there are SO MANY discussions and very DIFFERENT opinions in every category except QB and TE. From an overall viewpoint, is that telling us something ?

1) Is the possible player contribution depth greater this year ?

2) Or, when you get to the last 1 or 2 positions, is the player strength even enough that it's hard to figure out, but in fact that group of bubble players is weaker this year ?

3) Or is it one answer for some positions and the other answer for other positions ?

My possible take:

QB - stronger - Cassel is better - no veteran doesn't seem too negative
RB - stronger
OL - stronger presuming Koppen and Kaczur get back to 100%
TE - stronger
WR - presuming Branch is back - COULD be a little stronger ?? - not as veteran or as proven
....Last year - Givens, Davis, Dwight, Johnson, Sam, Terrell, Childress, Anderson
....This year - Caldwell, Jackson, Childress, [Andrews for return ?], Kight, Musinski, Stone, Smith

DL - stronger
....Last year - Hill, Klecko, Wright, Bailey, Thomas, Sverchek, Pili
....This year - Hill, Klecko, Wright, Sullivan, Smith, Thomas
LB - stronger IF Banta-Cain steps up - for sure deeper choice in young players
....Last year - McGinest, Beisel, Brown, Chattham, Mallard .. Alexander, Steen, Torrey
....This year - Beisel, Brown, Seau, Gardner, Woods, Mincey, Alexander, Roach
CB - stronger
....Last year - Starks, Poole, Scott, Poteat
....This year - Hawkins, Warfield, Scott, Poteat
S - stronger
....Last year - Scott, Sanders, Reid, Ventrone
....This year - Scott, Sanders, Jones, Ventrone, Andrews

Now isn't THAT interesting ?

 

[patsox23]

overall, they COULD be as deep as ever. But they feel dangerously thin at LB and not so great at WR, imo.

 

[zippo59]

If Branch, Jackson, and Bruschi get back, and Seau is serviceable, then I agree that this is the deepest team ever.

 

[tdw777]

overall, they COULD be as deep as ever. But they feel dangerously thin at LB and not so great at WR, imo.

what he said

 

[Underoath]

first of all, you didnt even mention Samuel for CB

second of all, how the HELL, are we deeper at LB??

third: once, again, how are we deeper at receiver? that's one of the most ******ed things i've ever heard

last year: Davis, Dwight, Givens, Branch, Brown, Johnson
this year: Brown, Jackson, Branch, Caldwell, Childress.

yeah, we're definitly deeper at receiver.

 

[patsfan13]

Overall deeper, currently you can't say that LB and WR is deeper, but I'll live with the potential upside of the groups at LB and WR. I hope we have a year with a 'normal' number of injuries.

 

[shakadave]

I say less deep than the last two Super Bowl years, sometimes with better starters. We're screwed if the usual heap of injuries happen at

a) starting QB
b) linebacker
c) RB
d) CB
e) Wilfork or Seymour
f) WR

That's a whole lot of breath-holding we'll have to do!

 

[arrellbee]

first of all, you didnt even mention Samuel for CB

Starters who are returning are left out of all of the positions - they are presumed constant from last year to this. What we are looking at is the DEPTH beneath the starters.

second of all, how the HELL, are we deeper at LB??

If you reread the post, it says:
"stronger IF Banta-Cain steps up - for sure deeper choice in young players"
Between last year and this you lose McGinest and effectively replace him with Banta-Cain. Therefore: "IF" Banta-Cain steps up to approximate McGinest production, the starters are approximately as strong as last year. "IF" Banta-Cain does not step up and his youth doesn't make up a little bit for McGinest slowing speed but crafty experience, then they WON'T be as strong. That's what "IF" means. If you think there is no chance that Banta-Cain can step up, you have to look back and remember all of the losses that were going to "kill" the Pats and see the younger players who stepped right up and did as well or better - that's established history.

And the main point is COMPARISON of depth (not evaluating whether the depth is strong). Leaving out McGinest / Banta-Cain, look again at the comparison:
....Last year - Beisel, Brown, Chattham, Mallard .. Alexander, Steen, Torrey
....This year - Beisel, Brown, Seau, Gardner, Woods, Mincey, Alexander, Roach
Now what is your honest opinion comparing Chattham and Mallard versus Seau (even aging), Gardner, and Woods or Mincey ??

third: once, again, how are we deeper at receiver? that's one of the most ******ed things i've ever heard

last year: Davis, Dwight, Givens, Branch, Brown, Johnson
this year: Brown, Jackson, Branch, Caldwell, Childress.

yeah, we're definitly deeper at receiver.

OK, first of all the assumption is that Branch returns. So you leave out Branch and Brown since they are holdovers.

So you compare:
...last year: Givens, Davis, Dwight, Johnson, Sam, Terrell, Childress, Anderson
...this year: Caldwell, Jackson, Childress, [Andrews for return ?], Kight, Musinski, Stone, Smith

So it's kind of ******ed to say it's ******ed to think:
"COULD be a little stronger ?? - not as veteran or as proven"
That doesn't say it IS stronger - just that it COULD be a little stronger question mark question mark

How could it be a little stronger ? What about if Caldwell or Jackson can provide as much production as Givens ? Or what if both Caldwell and Jackson prove to be legitimate #2 WR - you compare that with Davis or Dwight last year as the first depth below Givens ? That is not far fetched at all. While some folks think Caldwell could even get cut, there are a number of other folks who think Caldwell may have been the top NFL potential receiver in this years draft. If that were to be the case, do you really think that this WR corps wouldn't be stronger ?

Just asking.

But I, for one, am really looking forward to see what happens out on the field this year.

 

[jczxohn1]

To me, the key at LB is if Seau can fill the ILB position as a run-stopper and let Tedy get back to his old spot and Vrabel take McGinest's place, at least on 1st and 2nd down. No problem with TBC rushing and Vrabel inside on passing downs.

 

[brady2brown]

that's one of the most ******ed things i've ever heard

This seems a little harsh, doesn't it? Last year we were basically three deep at WR (Branch Givens Brown).

Assuming Branch will be back to play sometime this year, Why couldn't Branch Jackson Caldwell Brown be deeper?

I understand that opinions vary, and this is debatable, and we may not be deeper, but how is this one of the most ******ed things you have ever heard?

 

[Willie55]

To me, the key at LB is if Seau can fill the ILB position as a run-stopper and let Tedy get back to his old spot and Vrabel take McGinest's place, at least on 1st and 2nd down. No problem with TBC rushing and Vrabel inside on passing downs.

If the Pats are expecting Seau to be a 1st and 2nd down run-stopper, they are screwed. Hopefully one of the young guys can step in and make an unexpected impact.

 

[PonyExpress]

I am not worried AT ALL about the LBers. I personally believe the emergence of Wilfork as an All-pro nose tackle means a stiff could play LB effectively against the run this year. With Seymour, Wilfork, and Warren the LBers, whoever they are, are going to be living in paradise all season.

 

[Joker]

Exactly, PE..people forget

 

[sarge]

QB - weaker, missing the vet
RB - stronger
OL - stronger
TE - stronger
WR - weaker, so far by a lot!
DL - stronger, but that just requires they stay healthy
LB - weaker
CB - stronger, just by getting rid of Starks
S - stronger if and only if Rodney comes back healthy, otherwise the same.

 

[mgteich]

It also "could" snow in the next few days here in NH

Starters who are returning are left out of all of the positions - they are presumed constant from last year to this. What we are looking at is the DEPTH beneath the starters.

If you reread the post, it says:
"stronger IF Banta-Cain steps up - for sure deeper choice in young players"
Between last year and this you lose McGinest and effectively replace him with Banta-Cain. Therefore: "IF" Banta-Cain steps up to approximate McGinest production, the starters are approximately as strong as last year. "IF" Banta-Cain does not step up and his youth doesn't make up a little bit for McGinest slowing speed but crafty experience, then they WON'T be as strong. That's what "IF" means. If you think there is no chance that Banta-Cain can step up, you have to look back and remember all of the losses that were going to "kill" the Pats and see the younger players who stepped right up and did as well or better - that's established history.

And the main point is COMPARISON of depth (not evaluating whether the depth is strong). Leaving out McGinest / Banta-Cain, look again at the comparison:
....Last year - Beisel, Brown, Chattham, Mallard .. Alexander, Steen, Torrey
....This year - Beisel, Brown, Seau, Gardner, Woods, Mincey, Alexander, Roach
Now what is your honest opinion comparing Chattham and Mallard versus Seau (even aging), Gardner, and Woods or Mincey ??


OK, first of all the assumption is that Branch returns. So you leave out Branch and Brown since they are holdovers.

So you compare:
...last year: Givens, Davis, Dwight, Johnson, Sam, Terrell, Childress, Anderson
...this year: Caldwell, Jackson, Childress, [Andrews for return ?], Kight, Musinski, Stone, Smith

So it's kind of ******ed to say it's ******ed to think:
"COULD be a little stronger ?? - not as veteran or as proven"
That doesn't say it IS stronger - just that it COULD be a little stronger question mark question mark

How could it be a little stronger ? What about if Caldwell or Jackson can provide as much production as Givens ? Or what if both Caldwell and Jackson prove to be legitimate #2 WR - you compare that with Davis or Dwight last year as the first depth below Givens ? That is not far fetched at all. While some folks think Caldwell could even get cut, there are a number of other folks who think Caldwell may have been the top NFL potential receiver in this years draft. If that were to be the case, do you really think that this WR corps wouldn't be stronger ?

Just asking.

But I, for one, am really looking forward to see what happens out on the field this year.

 

[smg93]

QB - Slightly weaker (we have no drop kicker anymore)
RB - Stronger (healthy CD plus addition of Maroney will allow Faulk to play at specialized situations where he is so good at)
WR - Weaker (slightly with Branch and moreso of course without him)
TE - Stronger (Healthy Graham, Better Watson plus addition of Thomas and Mills beats out last years group easily)
OL - Stronger with return of Light and addition of O'Callaghan and getting rid of Gorin

DL - About the same but better than the first 6 games
LB - Weaker. Losing Willie is a loss for this group
CB - About the same
S - Stronger only if Rodney gets back soon and is still playing like the intimidator that he is.

P - Same obviously

K - Weaker as of today. The guy still needs to get some game pressure on him to be anointed a good replacement for Adam... But I am hopeful!

 

[mgteich]

Yes would be better off and have more depth if everyone steps up and there are no injuries. I don't find that opinion expecially interesting.

Also, I don't usually compare TC rosters. FOr example, Roach adds little depth since he won't be on the team.

OK. There have been a LOT of discussions about how folks are picking the 53 and the various tradeoffs. One thing that stands out is that there are SO MANY discussions and very DIFFERENT opinions in every category except QB and TE. From an overall viewpoint, is that telling us something ?

1) Is the possible player contribution depth greater this year ?

2) Or, when you get to the last 1 or 2 positions, is the player strength even enough that it's hard to figure out, but in fact that group of bubble players is weaker this year ?

3) Or is it one answer for some positions and the other answer for other positions ?

My possible take:

QB - stronger - Cassel is better - no veteran doesn't seem too negative
RB - stronger
OL - stronger presuming Koppen and Kaczur get back to 100%
TE - stronger
WR - presuming Branch is back - COULD be a little stronger ?? - not as veteran or as proven
....Last year - Givens, Davis, Dwight, Johnson, Sam, Terrell, Childress, Anderson
....This year - Caldwell, Jackson, Childress, [Andrews for return ?], Kight, Musinski, Stone, Smith

DL - stronger
....Last year - Hill, Klecko, Wright, Bailey, Thomas, Sverchek, Pili
....This year - Hill, Klecko, Wright, Sullivan, Smith, Thomas
LB - stronger IF Banta-Cain steps up - for sure deeper choice in young players
....Last year - McGinest, Beisel, Brown, Chattham, Mallard .. Alexander, Steen, Torrey
....This year - Beisel, Brown, Seau, Gardner, Woods, Mincey, Alexander, Roach
CB - stronger
....Last year - Starks, Poole, Scott, Poteat
....This year - Hawkins, Warfield, Scott, Poteat
S - stronger
....Last year - Scott, Sanders, Reid, Ventrone
....This year - Scott, Sanders, Jones, Ventrone, Andrews

Now isn't THAT interesting ?

 

[mgteich]

Ok, we're ignoring the fact that we don't have adequate starters at WR, LB and CB, and we are just focusing on depth, I agree that we likely will have better depth than last year, presuming that no one is injured.

IS THE DEPTH BETTER?

OFFENSE much better depth
QB Cassell much better than last year
RB Maroney is better than Pass; Faulk and Evans are back.
TE Mills and Thomas are better than Fauria
OL clearly better when Koppen and Kaczur are back
WR well, I guess the depth is better; Jackson is better than Davis

DEFENSE
DL Green and Wright are the same. We might upgrade from Hill and
Thomas/Kelcko for #6 and #7
ILB Let's consider now, compared to the last half of the year.
We had Beisel, and Alexander; we may be the same or have Gardner
I guess this is about the same with Vrabel inside; better when
Bruschi is back
LB pass the kool-aid. Who is the backup OLB: Mincey? Woods?
I guess we'll be better at depth when Chad Brown is back.
CB I suppose we are better with Gay and Chad Scott
S We're better with Hawkins and Jones as backups.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

My take:

QB - Even - Cassel is better but is balanced because we have no veteran

RB - Much stronger - Maroney is gold, Mills added as FB, and Cobbs looks good too

OL - A little Stronger - O'callahan (sp?) looks good.

TE - Definitely stronger - Fauria was decent, but Wendy and Mills are better

WR - Weaker - This is not even up for debate IMO. We lost a solid #2 in Givens and replaced him with Caldwell who *might* fill his shoes. Branch is still a holdout. B.Johnson was traded away. On the positive, we drafted Jackson, but he won't make a significant impact until late this year, maybe next year. Also, Childress looks a little better than last year and Stone looks halfway decent. Still weaker than last year IMO.

DL - A little stronger

LB - Weaker - Losing McGinest is no small matter. Also, Bruschi's health is in question again. Adding Seau might help a little, but he too old to be as effective as McGinest. On the bright side, we do have some good young talent in TBC, Woods, Alexander, and maybe even Roach and Mincey. Gardner may also help offset the loss a little. If we do sign Donnie Edwards, I would give our LB corpe an even break with last year... but also note that we have better up and coming young talent than we did last year.

CB - stronger
S - stronger

K - weaker

 

[F0nSY]

If the injuries respect to us, we can next year play a good role in the season.