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Are the Patriots getting out-schemed?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by maverick4, Dec 7, 2008.

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  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Remember from 01-04 when you got the sense we went into games with a schematic advantage? We self-scouted our own tendencies, we knew the other team's offensive and defensive weaknesses, and that all contributed to us making the big play in big moments because we knew ourselves and the other team so well.

    Fast forward to now and the past 3 years, you get the sense that we either go into games evenly matched scheme-wise, or even <gasp> out-schemed. What I mean by this is offensively we basically use the same shot-gun formation over and over, the same 5-10 plays over and over, telegraph what we are doing, and rely on EXECUTION against an increasingly adaptive defense/opponent. Defensively, we seem to use the same weak schemes over and over, less creativity and scouting in how to attack another team's offensive line or how to make their key player disappear from the game plan.

    It seems like nowadays our wins are due to individual plays resulting from talent, rather than scheme and putting the right player in the right spot due to scouting.
  2. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    You know we only lost one game last year, right?

    I think this year we HAVE to run basic schemes because of the SEVERE rotation in our D.
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Our 2001 defense was not very talented, look at who we had on the defensive line of that team, and yet it always came up with the big play.
    Do you think some of our mess ups defensively the past few years is due to just not enough talent or a schematic problem? When we consistently give up 3rd and long, let tight ends get open, and give up the middle of the field, is this on lack of talent or on scheme?

    I won't go into the offense, everyone saw tonight we use the same shot-gun formation over and over and try to execute better even though the opposing defense knows what is happening.
  4. LeonPowe

    LeonPowe Banned

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    We have poor coordinators, no doubt about that. The players are doing it all themselves.
  5. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Through sheer guts and great individual play by guys like Welker, we managed to squeeze this one out... Against a team with a record of 2-11, missing its top QB and top left tackle, and tons of other injuries.
  6. slash83

    slash83 Rookie

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    I dont think were getting out schemed, I think this team is beat the hell up with all the injuries and are going to be fighting for every win. Schemeing could only do so much you have to have good players to execute the scheme.
  7. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Defensively we are decimated by injuries so I'll give you that. Offensively, how are we not getting out-schemed when we run the same shot-gun offensive formation for nearly 3/4 of our snaps in the second half? Did you see how fast the pocket collapsed? How is that having a good scheme when you telegraph your plays over and over.
  8. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    cmon our defense is in pre-season mode because we lost so many starters.

    we have to be getting up there in terms of breaking injury records
  9. SVN

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    just look at our starting roster right now. what else can you scheme ? in fact the merriweather blitz/fumble was a shocking surprise ...
  10. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    that was a pretty awesome play, that hasn't happened in a while
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I would love to see some more creative blitz packages, especially for 3rd downs. Meriweather could be huge as a safety blitzer.
  12. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    i agree, we do need to remember it was the hawks and the OL had backups.

    but that was very creative.

    I hope now that wilhite has a game as a starter under his belt he will get better.

    the defense settled down considered so man new parts and missing parts.
  13. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I have not seen pressure up the middle in a long time. Other than the Meriweather blitz, when is the last time you remember a successful linebacker or safety blitz up the middle?
  14. SVN

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    seattle was without its starting center,left tackle and right tackle. so it may not work all the time like it did then. its growing pains with the defense. hard to call complicated schemes and blitzes when they are still picking up their coverages and blowing them still because the personnel keep changing due to injuries.
  15. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    brett favre and the jets.

    ILB blitzes with mayo and guyton
  16. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    See this is what I am talking about.

    How was Seneca Wallace able to throw 3 td's, no int's, pass for almost 75% completion rate, when he was working with a crap offensive line?

    I know we had injuries, but given that their offense had as many injuries as our defense, plus the fact that Seneca Wallace was the QB, isn't there something we can do schematically rather than put all the blame on injury?
  17. MassPats38

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    The simple fact is star defensive players get paid the big money because they make a difference when on the field. If you do not believe that, look at the Colts defense without Bob Sanders and the Chargers defense without Shawn Merriman. The Pats defense lacking Wilfork and Warren on the line is not going to have a great deal of success drawing double teams and keeping blockers from engaging the linebackers. Throw in a chipping running back and you have a QB with time to pick the secondary apart.

    If your blitz is a fraction of a second slow and the quarterback gets the throw off, then you get burned deep. My impression, given the absence of starters, was the defense went conservative in an attempt to not give up a TD every series. Hold the line, stop the run, and try to keep enough in the secondary to break up passes and force a punt.

    Schemes can only do so much when you lack the personnel to execute various schemes (A defense comprised entirely of hall of famers probably wouldn't need to scheme much if at all because of the difference in ability between offense and defense. The greatest of schemes probably won't save a second string defense against a first string offense under that same reasoning.). Today the Pats had too many junior varsity players on the field at the same time to really do much on defense. I was genuinely impressed the defense was able to show improvement in the second half and slow the scoring to the extent it did.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  18. SVN

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    well what else do you want the team to do without warren and wilfork and bruschi and playing two LB's signed last week with a beat up secondary ?

    on the contrary...mike holgren is an offsenive genius and their team with all these injuries is still 2-11 and we without our starting QB and beatup defense are still 8-5 . why do you see that ?
    When scrubs play on both sides its hard scheme anything since they will blow those assignments anyway. Did you see the 63 yard scamper by branch ? what scheme couldve stopped it ?and thats all they scored in all the 2nd half.
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Last year the Pats lost ONE game because the referee decided to NOT blow the whistle when he should have.

    This year, the Pats have been dealing with an amazing number of injuries.

    Think about this. Today the Pats had Rosie Colvin and Junior Seau out there playing quite a few snaps. Colvin had been at home since he was cut by the Texans and Seau has been at home since February. Technically, Colvin is the 5th string OLB and Seau is the 4th string ILB.

    After the 1st quarter of today's game (with Wilfork, Bruschi and Sanders going out) the Pats had 7 of their top 22 starters out of the game. Basically a full THIRD of the starters weren't playing and they still managed to pull this off.

    Its not a matter of getting "out-schemed". Its a matter of having to rely on players who are still learning the system. Guys like Mayo, Lewis Sanders, Jonathan Wilhite, Deltha O'Neal, etc.
  20. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    Put me in the not enough talent theory. We're getting older. And, also are
    being decimated by injuries. Loss of A.Samuel has been significant. I think more
    than many of us thought would happen.
  21. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I can buy the injuries having an effect, but how about before Harrison and Thomas and Warren and Wilfork and Bruschi went down, when we were at full health, and still getting torched by lesser QB's in the first half of the season?

    Was that due to talent or scheme issues?
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  22. MassPats38

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    Two conclusions I have made on Belichick's approach over the years: (1) he did not value high-priced wide receivers (a good run sets up the pass - changed after 2006); and (2) he does not value high-priced defensive backs. The reason for (2) is, barring a roster of 4 shutdown defensive backs, passes will be completed given enough time. Even mediocre defensive backs can hold a receiver for a couple of seconds, so if the front seven can get to the QB in that time, the QB will either take a sack or force a bad pass. That is why he has always thrown money at the front seven while using veterans and rookies in the secondary rather than high-priced free agents.

    For some reason, last year to some extent and this year, the front seven has not been as effective as it has been in previous years at putting the pressure on the QB. I don't know if it's age, experience (for the rookies), injuries or skill, but no secondary in my memory from the Pats could defense the passes with the time the QBs are getting. I would love to be able to say exactly why the defense isn't getting the pressure it once did, but I can't pinpoint the exact cause.

    As schemes are based on personnel/talent, I would not be inclined to point to poor scheming. I trust Belichick and Pees will do the most with what they have, so I am not expecting some radical defensive masterpiece to cure the present defensive problems. I do think it is possible that the rookies gaining experience, specifically Guyton and Mayo, may make the defensive more effective this season. Remember, with the complexity of the defensive schemes 1 player can drastically affect defensive performance (e.g., the linebacker problem post-Bruschi's stroke in 2005).
  23. SammyBlueCat

    SammyBlueCat Rookie

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    This team is a very slow team. The scheme can not hide that fact.
  24. DaBruinz

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    Yes, the team has 4 starters and several back-ups on IR, but it doesn't have enough talent because you say so.

    Yes, certain players such as Vrabel, Bruschi, and Harrison are getting older. But the team added a ton of talent in this year's draft. People need to wake up and remember that these players aren't all going to click out of TC. Some will take longer than others. That is LIFE.

    If you knew that by the end of today's game the Pats would be without 7 of their starters and 4 of their primary back-ups, you are Nostradameus and you need to give everyone the winning lottery numbers..
  25. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    We don't have players on defense. With no Rodney and walking wounded and undrafted free agents playing we can't really afford to be exotic.

    Our running backs have been injured a lot too, though we'll go run heavy if appropriate, even with Jarvis Benwa Kenobi Ellis, or whatever his name is.
  26. DaBruinz

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    Why does it have to be either of those? You seem to forget that there were some injury issues in camp as well. Also, it doesn't have to be SCHEME issues for the team to just be playing bad. And they were.

    How about technique issues? You have Mayo, Guyton, Wheatley, and Wilhite all joining a pro team. The college game is DIFFERENT. Its not nearly as fast as the pros. They have techniques that need to be refined. That not TALENT. That is something that takes repitition. You have guys who are entering the most complex defense in the NFL today who have never played in the 3-4. That isn't a TALENT issue. I guess you could say its a scheme issue, but I think that is being too general.

    As a whole, the team's psyche took a major hit when Brady went down. That affected their play. Also, you had starters who weren't there like NEAL.

    This team has not been WHOLE all year and its silly to say that it was. This team is typically hitting its stride ride about now. But, right about now, they usually aren't missing such key starters as a Tom Brady or Adalius Thomas.

    This year actually reminds me of Lemony Snicket's "A series of Unfortunate Events". And it started with Neal not being ready. That hurt the O-line because neither Hochstein nor Yates were ready to be the starter. Then Brady going down. Then Maroney, Morris and Jordan all withn a game of one another. Then Harrison. and so on. And so on.

    Me? I am still astounded that the Pats are where they are today. Particularly with everything that has happened this year. You can sit there and try and slap a label on it or try and blame someone for it, but, in all honesty, its an excercise in futility. Because there are just too many things that have to be factored in.
  27. DaBruinz

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    See. I have to disagree with that. I heard those dumb arse commentators saying that and I had to laugh because that is the farthest thing from the truth. This is NOT a slow defense. Nor a slow team. This defense has many very quick players on it. The problem is that they are still learning the defense so they look slow. Or they are making rookie mistakes and over-running plays.

    And please don't use the Deion Branch play because I am still trying to figure out how a O-lineman got far enough down field so that he'd be able to blow up Mayo the way he did and not have it be an illegal player downfield.
  28. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Oh come on. You're last two posts sound like Baghdad Bob.

    Lack of speed? What lack of speed?

    Very many quick players? well cornerbacks are supposed to be quick. There's Hobbs.

    Meriweather, Mayo. Outside of the relatively quick 300-350 lb. DL, where else do you see quick?

    And speaking of the DL isn't it wonderful to have three seasoned backups who can step in and get something done.

    When was the last time we had one at linebacker, Marty Moore? Matt Chatham?
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2008
  29. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Starters today:

    Sanders: 4.6
    Meriweather: 4.49
    Wilhite: 4.38
    Hobbs: 4.39 (Pro day), also reported at 4.46
    Mayo: 4.54
    Guyton: 4.47


    Last year, Rosevelt Colvin
  30. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Last year Roosevelt Colvin. That's beautiful.

    So if you can find anybody on the team that ran a good 40, we're quick.

    You know other teams have cornerbacks and safeties too. Plus unproven 4th rounders and free agents.

    I'll have to agree with you that we have some fast players on defense.

    Unfortunately, everybody else in the league has more.
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