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Are the Patriots getting out-schemed?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by maverick4, Dec 7, 2008.

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  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Remember from 01-04 when you got the sense we went into games with a schematic advantage? We self-scouted our own tendencies, we knew the other team's offensive and defensive weaknesses, and that all contributed to us making the big play in big moments because we knew ourselves and the other team so well.

    Fast forward to now and the past 3 years, you get the sense that we either go into games evenly matched scheme-wise, or even <gasp> out-schemed. What I mean by this is offensively we basically use the same shot-gun formation over and over, the same 5-10 plays over and over, telegraph what we are doing, and rely on EXECUTION against an increasingly adaptive defense/opponent. Defensively, we seem to use the same weak schemes over and over, less creativity and scouting in how to attack another team's offensive line or how to make their key player disappear from the game plan.

    It seems like nowadays our wins are due to individual plays resulting from talent, rather than scheme and putting the right player in the right spot due to scouting.
     
  2. JSn

    JSn Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You know we only lost one game last year, right?

    I think this year we HAVE to run basic schemes because of the SEVERE rotation in our D.
     
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Our 2001 defense was not very talented, look at who we had on the defensive line of that team, and yet it always came up with the big play.
    Do you think some of our mess ups defensively the past few years is due to just not enough talent or a schematic problem? When we consistently give up 3rd and long, let tight ends get open, and give up the middle of the field, is this on lack of talent or on scheme?

    I won't go into the offense, everyone saw tonight we use the same shot-gun formation over and over and try to execute better even though the opposing defense knows what is happening.
     
  4. LeonPowe

    LeonPowe Banned

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    We have poor coordinators, no doubt about that. The players are doing it all themselves.
     
  5. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Through sheer guts and great individual play by guys like Welker, we managed to squeeze this one out... Against a team with a record of 2-11, missing its top QB and top left tackle, and tons of other injuries.
     
  6. slash83

    slash83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    I dont think were getting out schemed, I think this team is beat the hell up with all the injuries and are going to be fighting for every win. Schemeing could only do so much you have to have good players to execute the scheme.
     
  7. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Defensively we are decimated by injuries so I'll give you that. Offensively, how are we not getting out-schemed when we run the same shot-gun offensive formation for nearly 3/4 of our snaps in the second half? Did you see how fast the pocket collapsed? How is that having a good scheme when you telegraph your plays over and over.
     
  8. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    cmon our defense is in pre-season mode because we lost so many starters.

    we have to be getting up there in terms of breaking injury records
     
  9. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    just look at our starting roster right now. what else can you scheme ? in fact the merriweather blitz/fumble was a shocking surprise ...
     
  10. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    that was a pretty awesome play, that hasn't happened in a while
     
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I would love to see some more creative blitz packages, especially for 3rd downs. Meriweather could be huge as a safety blitzer.
     
  12. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    i agree, we do need to remember it was the hawks and the OL had backups.

    but that was very creative.

    I hope now that wilhite has a game as a starter under his belt he will get better.

    the defense settled down considered so man new parts and missing parts.
     
  13. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I have not seen pressure up the middle in a long time. Other than the Meriweather blitz, when is the last time you remember a successful linebacker or safety blitz up the middle?
     
  14. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    seattle was without its starting center,left tackle and right tackle. so it may not work all the time like it did then. its growing pains with the defense. hard to call complicated schemes and blitzes when they are still picking up their coverages and blowing them still because the personnel keep changing due to injuries.
     
  15. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    brett favre and the jets.

    ILB blitzes with mayo and guyton
     
  16. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    See this is what I am talking about.

    How was Seneca Wallace able to throw 3 td's, no int's, pass for almost 75% completion rate, when he was working with a crap offensive line?

    I know we had injuries, but given that their offense had as many injuries as our defense, plus the fact that Seneca Wallace was the QB, isn't there something we can do schematically rather than put all the blame on injury?
     
  17. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The simple fact is star defensive players get paid the big money because they make a difference when on the field. If you do not believe that, look at the Colts defense without Bob Sanders and the Chargers defense without Shawn Merriman. The Pats defense lacking Wilfork and Warren on the line is not going to have a great deal of success drawing double teams and keeping blockers from engaging the linebackers. Throw in a chipping running back and you have a QB with time to pick the secondary apart.

    If your blitz is a fraction of a second slow and the quarterback gets the throw off, then you get burned deep. My impression, given the absence of starters, was the defense went conservative in an attempt to not give up a TD every series. Hold the line, stop the run, and try to keep enough in the secondary to break up passes and force a punt.

    Schemes can only do so much when you lack the personnel to execute various schemes (A defense comprised entirely of hall of famers probably wouldn't need to scheme much if at all because of the difference in ability between offense and defense. The greatest of schemes probably won't save a second string defense against a first string offense under that same reasoning.). Today the Pats had too many junior varsity players on the field at the same time to really do much on defense. I was genuinely impressed the defense was able to show improvement in the second half and slow the scoring to the extent it did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  18. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    well what else do you want the team to do without warren and wilfork and bruschi and playing two LB's signed last week with a beat up secondary ?

    on the contrary...mike holgren is an offsenive genius and their team with all these injuries is still 2-11 and we without our starting QB and beatup defense are still 8-5 . why do you see that ?
    When scrubs play on both sides its hard scheme anything since they will blow those assignments anyway. Did you see the 63 yard scamper by branch ? what scheme couldve stopped it ?and thats all they scored in all the 2nd half.
     
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Last year the Pats lost ONE game because the referee decided to NOT blow the whistle when he should have.

    This year, the Pats have been dealing with an amazing number of injuries.

    Think about this. Today the Pats had Rosie Colvin and Junior Seau out there playing quite a few snaps. Colvin had been at home since he was cut by the Texans and Seau has been at home since February. Technically, Colvin is the 5th string OLB and Seau is the 4th string ILB.

    After the 1st quarter of today's game (with Wilfork, Bruschi and Sanders going out) the Pats had 7 of their top 22 starters out of the game. Basically a full THIRD of the starters weren't playing and they still managed to pull this off.

    Its not a matter of getting "out-schemed". Its a matter of having to rely on players who are still learning the system. Guys like Mayo, Lewis Sanders, Jonathan Wilhite, Deltha O'Neal, etc.
     
  20. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa In the Starting Line-Up

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    Put me in the not enough talent theory. We're getting older. And, also are
    being decimated by injuries. Loss of A.Samuel has been significant. I think more
    than many of us thought would happen.
     
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