Are the 2012 Patriots team more talented than the 2007 Pats?

[patsinthesnow]

Woah. That is so not a wash. Let's not get too excited. If we're lucky, the 2014 LB unit will be able to compete with 2007, but 2012 is very much a work in progress.

Mayo: All-Pro ILB vs. a 33 year old, good Bruschi

Spikes: Solid ILB, could take step to elite vs. 38 year old Junior Seau

Ninkovich: good starter v. 12.5 sack year, probowl Vrabel

Hightower: talented rookie v. Thomas, 6.5 sack guy who was good but overrated


:confused2:

 

[rookBoston]

- Hightower is going to make mistakes and needs to learn the scheme.
- Spikes was only starting to make his mark near the end of his sophomore year.
- Ninkovich is solid, but Vrabel defined the position.
- Mayo is a tackling machine, but Bruschi always made the clutch interception or forced fumble to seal the game. I still want to see Big-Play Mayo.

As a unit, they are green. They need the mental reps. We are going to get gouged a few times, this year. Rookies overplaying the ball, getting caught out of position, recurring mental screw ups. The 2007 crew had that stuff solved. The scheme was wired into their muscle memory.

 

[IllegalContact]

The current LB group is nowhere near the LB's of 2007.....to even suggest it is a 'wash' is utterly ridiculous

-It would be a tough choice between the old man stud LB core (Thomas, Bruschi, Seau, Vrabel, Colvin) and the young stud LB core (Hightower, Spikes, Mayo, Ninkovich). Wash IMO

-2007 CBs: Samuel, Hobbs, Gay, Spann.
2012 CBs: Mccourty, Arrington, Dowling, Moore, Dennard

IMO, 2012 is deeper and arguably better. (Arrington or Dowling would be the #2 CB on 2007, and if Mccourty can regain his dominance, than he's better than Samuel, add that Moore/Dennard are young talents)

07 is better in the safety department, but featured a 34 year old Rodney, rookie bangclock, young Sanders, and Wilson, it was nothing great.
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And if you want that logic Andrewgarr

Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, Ninkovich, Arrington, Dowling, Hightower, Chung, Mccourty, Jones, Deaderick, Moore

LoL

 

[IllegalContact]

talk about spinning to try to make your point

Mayo: All-Pro ILB vs. a 33 year old, good Bruschi

Spikes: Solid ILB, could take step to elite vs. 38 year old Junior Seau

Ninkovich: good starter v. 12.5 sack year, probowl Vrabel

Hightower: talented rookie v. Thomas, 6.5 sack guy who was good but overrated


:confused2:

 

[patsinthesnow]

talk about spinning to try to make your point

How's it spinning? Mayo and Spikes are way better LBs than Bruschi and Seau way past their primes.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

No....they are not.....deeper but not more front line talent.

Also to OP....LIght was better in 2007 than Solder will be this year...and I expect him to be pretty darn good.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I don't get threads like these. Who cares if we're more talented than 2007? Eagles were insanely talented last year and still didn't even get a wild card spot.

All that matters is this... Can we go all the way in the playoffs?

nobody knows. we won't know until next year. so this discussions like this are pointless.

 

[Joker]

I don't get threads like these. Who cares if we're more talented than 2007? Eagles were insanely talented last year and still didn't even get a wild card spot.

All that matters is this... Can we go all the way in the playoffs?

nobody knows. we won't know until next year. so this discussions like this are pointless.

stick around ,Nate....as you'll eventually see later this season, threads like this lay the groundwork for the inevitable avalanche of chicken little threads that will explode on this board at the first sign of ANY adversity this season. There is a very stubborn segment of posters on this board who only want to talk about negatives, and see negatives in every play of every game, especially losses, which I suppose are NEVER supposed to ever occur.

"It Is What It Is"

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The current LB group is nowhere near the LB's of 2007.....to even suggest it is a 'wash' is utterly ridiculous

I think you're overrating the 2007 LB's a little bit. They were a good group and probably better than the current, but not by much. When Colvin was healthy the first half of the season, yes they were beastly. But when he went down, that forced Seau and Bru into larger roles than we probably wanted at that point in their careers. There was zero quality depth beyond the top 4 after Colvin went down. Vrabel's production plummeted from that point on, whether Colvin's absense had something to do with that or if it was purely coincidental I'm not sure. But I think that portion of the 2007 season actually was the start of Vrabel's demise which we saw continue into 2008. AD was OK but clearly wasn't the impact player he was expected to be.

If we're talking about the 2001-2004 LB's I agree, it's no comparison, But after TJ retired, Bru had his stroke, and Willie was cut, the LB crew really wasn't the same.

 

[aurakilla]

this is kinda funny we had a thread like this last year......

 

[Fencer]

Once defenses adjusted to the need to knock Moss around at the line, he wasn't entirely unstoppable. Lloyd/Gronk/Hernandez could be very competitive in talent with Moss/Watson/K. Brady.

The OP was way off on the Light-->Solder comparison, at least for this season, as already noted. Best case is that Solder is a mild upgrade. Base case is that Solder is a mild downgrade. Worst case is ... never mind.

Mankins is apt to have a bit of an off year even after he's back from knee surgery.

Faulk was a much superior blocker to Woodhead, and a better receiver. Woodhead is probably a better runner.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

The offesne has the potential to be one of the greatest of all time but it really comes down to the play of the OL. With solid play from the OL, this offense might not score more points than the 07 offense, but they will be less predictable, maintinaing their potency through the post-season. This offense could set the record for least percentage of drives with punts.

People are over rating the 07 defense which was was showing their age at the end of 06. People seem to forget that by that point, BB was using Seymour for just two downs, which created a rift between BB and Sey. By the playoffs, the 07 defense had suffered a lot of injuries. The 12 defense has a great chance of improving significantly this year and appears to have much greater depth than last year or 07. If the offense punts as rarely as I think they may, the 12 defense could be very good statitistically.

This team has potential to be as good or better than the 07 team on paper. However, 12 team will probably be a much stronger playoff team than 07. This can all change if the OL performs poorly, or if there are mutliple key injuries.

 

[patsfan-1982]

no they are still a average at best defense but that dose not mean they cant do with the 2007 team could not win it all

 

[IllegalContact]

the offense does not have a proven RB.......ridley/vereen/woodhead <<< maroney/morris/faulk

 

[Jackson 2]

I am typically as optimistic as anyone, but I'm going to reserve judgement on this one for a while.

 

[TyronePoole]

the offense does not have a proven RB.......ridley/vereen/woodhead <<< maroney/morris/faulk

as in "proven" to be mediocre?

You are also wrong about the 2007 LBers imo, they were borderline bad and it was one of the biggest knocks on the team at the time. On paper they look like a list of big names but in reality only Vrabel was not old and slow. That offense had such ridiculous TOP that it masked how mediocre the defense was, it was nowhere near top five in reality.

Who knows about this defense, they will probably make mental mistakes being young that the 2007 crew didn't, but they also aren't likely to get juked out of their pants like the 2007 team routinely did.

 

[IllegalContact]

as in "proven" to be mediocre?

You are also wrong about the 2007 LBers imo, they were borderline bad and it was one of the biggest knocks on the team at the time. On paper they look like a list of big names but in reality only Vrabel was not old and slow. That offense had such ridiculous TOP that it masked how mediocre the defense was, it was nowhere near top five in reality.

Who knows about this defense, they will probably make mental mistakes being young that the 2007 crew didn't, but they also aren't likely to get juked out of their pants like the 2007 team routinely did.

no....proven as to being able to carry the ball without putting it down(ridley). proven as to being able to last a few games(vereen). proven as to be more than an 8 touch per game guy (woodhead)

2007 RB's were mediocre.......this group is not even that.

As for the LB's, they are the core of a defense that could not stop anyone. don't even waste your breath in trying to convince anyone that the current defense is even close in ability to the 2007 group.....yeah, the 2007 group may not have been epic, but the 2011 defense was one of the 2 worst in the NFL......the fact they drafted who they did speaks for itself. when and if these guys prove themselves to be something, then speak up....because right now its nonsense

 

[TyronePoole]

no....proven as to being able to carry the ball without putting it down(ridley). proven as to being able to last a few games(vereen). proven as to be more than an 8 touch per game guy (woodhead)

2007 RB's were mediocre.......this group is not even that.

As for the LB's, they are the core of a defense that could not stop anyone. don't even waste your breath in trying to convince anyone that the current defense is even close in ability to the 2007 group.....yeah, the 2007 group may not have been epic, but the 2011 defense was one of the 2 worst in the NFL......the fact they drafted who they did speaks for itself. when and if these guys prove themselves to be something, then speak up....because right now its nonsense

LBers weren't a problem last year imo, maybe OLB. We had the worst secondary ever. Our run D was pretty decent. The fact that we drafted Hightower doesn't really mean that our LBers sucked, it just means that BB thinks Hightower is the man. He went out and spent a gazillion on Adalius Thomas before 2007 also so by your logic he must have thought they sucked too?

 

[IllegalContact]

LBers weren't a problem last year imo, maybe OLB. We had the worst secondary ever. Our run D was pretty decent. The fact that we drafted Hightower doesn't really mean that our LBers sucked, it just means that BB thinks Hightower is the man. He went out and spent a gazillion on Adalius Thomas before 2007 also so by your logic he must have thought they sucked too?

if that's how you want to conclude things, I can't stop you, but as of right now, chandler jones could be another jarvis moss, hightower could be another gary guyton, and bequette could be another jermain cunningham.....we don't know anything as to how they will pan out.

as for thomas, the pats had let mcginest go and colvin never really got it all together.....

by your logic, seymour sucked because the pats drafted warren, then wilfork

the pats LB's were weak enough where the pats literally had to change their scheme and run out and get carter and anderson

 

[BradyManny]

The thing with the 2011 defense was - yes, it was essentially historically bad at times.

And I would argue that the time of possession and field position issues they caused were at the heart of the SB loss.

But, there's no doubt it was playing much, much, much better at the end of the year.

Consider that against the Eagles in the middle of the season we fielded a starting lineup with Gary Guyton, Tracy White, Sterling Moore, Antwaun Molden & James Ihedigbo.

Replace that with Hightower, Spikes, McCourty, Dowling & Gregory and I think you can see it's safe to assume the 2012 defense has more going for it.