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Aqib Talib and long term commitment

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I see so many posts wanting to pay Talib like a top corner, without any consideration to the risks.
    It seems like everyone has overlooked a ton of off the field problems, a substance abuse suspension, and the fact that his team really didn't want him back last year. (He wasn't traded because a 4th was so valuable to a team fighting to make the playoffs in a new HCs first year)
    I'll leave out the attitude rumors.

    Why is everyone, well at least those in favor of a long term deal with big guaranteed money, so willing to overlook these risks, rather than either reducing the offer and structure to limit the teams exposure to them, or looking at a more stable corner to spend that money on?
  2. Jackson 2

    Jackson 2 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'd be reluctant to commit to him. I know the secondary was clearly better with him there, but there's a lot to be worried about with him. I'd be leery of offering him anything long-term.
  3. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    It might be due to the fact that we've been very weak at corner for so long, and folks will get kinda giddy when there's someone semi-competent in there. Also, what other FA CB is thought to be a better option?
  4. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    I don't think anyone wants to give him a deal that doesn't at lest try to protect the Patriots, but the fact of the matter is, we know his abilities, and we know how he fits in at least somewhat to this team, he's young, and he's indicated being amiable to staying here.

    All the other names that have popped up are either old, coming off injuries, or salvage projects. The only other guy I personally would tolerate is Nmandi, and who even knows with him.
  5. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    Agreed. As a fan I'd be fine either way about this guy, especially considering recent reports about his allegedly spotty work ethic.
  6. naF staP

    naF staP Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    He needs to prove he can stay on the field for a full season before signing him to a big, long term contract.

    Where was he when the Patriots needed him most last season.... on the bench hurt.
  7. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #95 Jersey

    give him a long term contract...but don't pay him like a top 10 CB becasue in my eyes he hasn't proven it yet. Hurt all of last year. But i am not sure he will take that becasue he knows the pats need him.

    Franchise him for 1 year and see where it goes. if they don't franchise him i think it is 100% gone and we will need to find another CB through FA. DRC and Grimes are my top 2 choices

    I have been thinking about it as of late and i think he is gone. No way they pay him long term. Only thing i see is franchise him. If he is gone i guess we have to hope for a good CB in FA. If not we will be an early exit come playoffs becasue the secondary is still pretty bad.

    it sucks that brady only has a few more solid years left and they are being wasted by the secondary among a few other things
  8. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I'm not so sure I am. I guess I'd rather see them take a chance on a franchise tag commitment rather than a long term deal. the secondary did look a lot better with him in there than without. At least to my eyes anyway. Given his injury history in such a small sample it's scary actually to think of giving that much money to someone who hasn't proven himself elite. Just glimpses of being really good. It's certainly not a no brainer and a tough call I'm glad not to be a part of.
  9. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #95 Jersey

    All pats fans should want this over a long term contract. And talib would like it as well becasue that's a lot of $$ and more time to prove himself to other teams once he leaves.

    but given his work ethic issues...the FO may have already said bye the the idea but we won't know until FA when he shops around as stupid teams like the bills will overpay for him
  10. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Once a month or so I see a comment that just jumps off the screen, so I will assume that you are joking here.
  11. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Just out of curiosity, what did you consider Talib to be when he came here? A budding star?
  12. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    I think there's some confusion, especially in the press, between:

    1. Talib is a or the top CB option in FA this year.
    2. Talib should be given the franchise tag.

    A lot of folks believe #1. But even if you believe #1, then #2 does not immediately follow.
  13. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    And by the way, with all the risk factors for Talib he may have trouble getting huge amounts of guaranteed money. If the Pats DID tag him, he might sign the tender as quickly as Matt Cassel did.
  14. Joey007

    Joey007 Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    I would still bring him back. I'd give him a two year deal so if he doesn't work out he can be cut easily the next year, and if he works out they can give him an extension.
  15. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    I'm sure we're unanimously, or near-unanimously, in favor of giving Talib millions of dollars to play for the Pats. The question is whether we favor giving him ENOUGH millions to persuade him to do so.
  16. Joker

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    Caveat emptor as far as Talib goes. He showed what a skilled CB can do for the Pats defense...what the Pats need to do is finally find a skill CB in the draft that approximates Talib's skill level....without the sudden injury concerns.
  17. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    We now know he can actually play. Grimes and Nmandi? Who knows?

    That's worth something.
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is off the topic, but its been brought up a few times, so maybe it should be part of the conversation.
    Did they play better with him, or is that just the perception and hope?

    He played in 6 games, but one was J-ville where he really didn't play hardly at all. So we are really down to 5 games.
    Those 5 included SF where we stunk on D, Miami who we dominated in the game he didn't play and we so-so in the one he did. Indy where Talib played poorly and was given a pass for being out of game shape. The Jets, which was a rout, but we did allow Sanchez to go 26-36-301. The 6th (and 7th if we count playoffs) was Houston, which would be a point in his favor.

    Personally I think the jury is out on whether we actually played better if much better with Talib at corner. His injury issues that kept him out of many games including the AFCCG should be taken into account too.

    Is it that we are so adamant in getting a corner that we are not only ignoring Talib's risk factors but also overrating his contributions? Personally I think people overrated his play during the season because it gave them hope the defense was 'fixed'.
  19. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    We are going about it the wrong way. In other words it shouldn't necessarily be about who can be the CB1. It should be about how to improve the CB depth and potential competition as a whole, allowing the process of the CB1 to be decided with the competition that is training camp and into the first 4-5 games of the season. We can't go into it trying to replace Talib himself, but we can certainly increase the talent, depth, and competition for the secondary in many ways.

    Let me ask you something, if you look at the following list of some players, wouldn't you think that we'd be in a better position than many years? I'm going to propose that the safety position is addressed in free agency instead with a much bigger move, since I think it's more cost effective, more of a "sure thing," and offers a solution for the future. This would also allow McCourty to play the role of CB too as an additional option, which is a possibility if a bigger name signing + draft pick is taken:

    Dennard
    Asomugah/DRC/Gamble
    McCourty
    Arrington
    Dowling
    Top flight draft choice to add even more to the mix (rounds 1-3)



    Of course that is IF the safety position is addressed properly. That could be done in a number of ways from a short-term band aid such as Woodson/Reed, to a more permanent long-term solution such as Goldson/Moore, etc. Those are the obvious solutions, but may also be pipe-dreams, so let's look at something a bit more realistic:

    LOWEST COST FIX TO BOTH POSITIONS:

    One could even make the argument that a top round safety like Elam could pair with T.Wilson, especially if you add a lower/middle cost vet like Sheldon Brown into the mix for starting reps/role bit/depth. That could give us a safety tandem of Brown, T.Wilson, and Elam, with Gregory adding to the mix.

    That's certainly one hell of an improvement and allows McCourty to go back to being the CB1, with Dennard as the CB2, and ALL of that could be done without even adding another CB like DRC/Asomugah/Gamble into the mix. We could get by with simply adding some lower cost additions for depth and nickel/dime competition.

    In this scenario NEITHER position of CB/S would have to be spent bigger money on. Of course we'd like to see something a little better, but the following positional depth would be achieved at almost no real cost:

    SAFETY

    Elam
    T.Wilson
    S.Brown (or some other adequate safety for lower cost who could start)
    Gregory

    CORNERBACK

    McCourty
    Dennard
    Arrington
    Dowling
    High round draft pick who could potentially fall from anywhere from CB1--CB4
    Low cost vet pickup for added competition
  20. nzahir

    nzahir Rookie

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    And who can we replace talib with? Derek cox is more inury prone than talib. Keenan lewis will prob be reisgned, and i dont think hes a true #1 cb. Grimes is older and came off a huge injury. Sean smith is ranked as one of the worst coverage cb's and wants brandon carr money. So that leaves who-nnamdi if he gets cut, and he has been a bust, getting older, and needs to play press(something we dont do).

    So if you are saying we should just let go of talib then you are dumb. The franchise costs way too much money and wont let us sign anyone else important.
  21. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It's obvious to me that the defense was "fixed" by the following moves:

    McCourty to safety

    Arrington to the slot

    Dennard as a starting outside CB

    The removal of Chung

    There are 4 main factors that allowed the secondary to improve. People forget that there are plenty of ways to add extra talent and improve upon the position, and that scheme itself is often a big factor. Another player or players can add to the CB role to improve on the position, and the same goes for safety too. Talib is not anywhere near as important as people are trying to make it out to be.

    This is a secondary that somehow held E.Manning to 19 offensive pts in the SB loss: McCourty, Molden, S.Moore, Arrington, Chung, Ihedigbo. I think that we can certainly improve upon some aspects while not going overboard for a mediocre player who will cost way too much. This shouldn't even be 1/2 of the debate that it has become in my opinion.
  22. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See,I think we want to believe that, but if you really look on the field, what convinces you? The Houston game is a big positive, but we were worse vs SF than in any other game all year.
    Our defense was really good (better I think, but didn't look up) late in 2011 than this year, so preception may not be reality.

    EDIT: I thought you were including Talib in there, so my point would then be agreeing with, not disagreeing with you, although we need a better starting corner than Arrington or safety duo than Gregory and Wilson.
  23. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    This is the absolute worst-case scenario that would cost next to nothing in terms of any of the players you are proposing, especially Talib...

    There is nowhere to go but up from here, and yet this still looks like a pretty decent improvement to me.

    If the team is willing to spend any amount of money at either one of the CB/S positions in free agency, then we'd be making a big improvement upon this absolute low cost scenario that I have proposed. Either way, none of it has anything to do with spending lots of money or taking big risks with a player who hasn't proven anything whatsoever and has about a million character concerns (and also was injured for 50% of his time here).

    I'll take your word for it....

    Maybe you should send Belichick a letter stating why we should gamble on an overpriced player with mediocre talent and character concerns, who stood on the sideline with his puffy jacket and condom hat tilted to the side while the secondary got shredded in his one and only chance at seeing a SB appearance.

    If Talib doesn't accept a reasonable contract offer (which he won't and I don't blame him due to media overhype and a second chance given from God himself) then don't let the door hit you in the a55...life will go on, and there are still plenty of reasonable ways to try and improve the secondary.

    We almost won a SB last year with Antwaan Molden, Sterling Moore, Patrick Chung, and James Ihedigbo playing the secondary and contributing significantly in the NYG loss. I think we can get by without the awesome player that is Aqib Talib.
  24. supafly

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    #24 Jersey

    I think that there are plenty of options, and that the NEP secondary gradually improves many years as the season progresses.

    We've won more with a lot less, and we've actually seen players that were called off the street or played WR come in and play the slot. I think that there are many factors that go into trying to judge the secondary, but when everyone does their job better, a lot of improvement is made, especially if you give Belichick some time to hide weaknesses and take away key players.

    I just want to see some more talent added through FA and the draft. I'm not going to worry about who is going to be the CB1/CB2 because that's what training camp and the month of September (first 1/4 of the season) is for. If there are some more talented players added, it will all shake out just fine.
  25. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I definitely agree that the amount of talent added rather than what position it plays is what is most important. That leads to getting value in contracts. Given the way the cap may play out this year, it may turn into less big signings and more incremental improvements across the roster.
  26. nzahir

    nzahir Rookie

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    So nobody has yet to answer who will replace him, you guys are just saying there are options..
  27. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are a number of Free Agents. Is your position that Talib is so much better than anyorne else that we could get that we should hand him a blank check and ignore the risk of substance abuse issues, criminal charges and off the field issues that could lead to him not being on the field?
  28. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    CB1: Talib/Nmandi
    Backup: Dowling/Draft Pick

    Both Talib and Nmandi similar in their inability to play zone. They almost entirely ignore the scheme and are left to their own devices, being man to man corners. At least Talib is young enough that he might be able to be coached into it, which makes him my preferred player.

    Dowling takes the backup position with a developmental pick taking third string.

    CB2: Dennard
    Backup: Dowling/Draft Pick

    Pretty simple. The same pick also backs up here.

    Slot: Arrington
    Backup: Draft Pick (Preferably Mathieu)

    Arrington is very good at his job in the slot, and that's really all there is to it. I would also like the idea of the Honey Badger coming in and being the backup here. His cover skills are adequate in the box, and he's enough of an intriguing playmaker that I think he's worth a pick.

    Star: Tavon Wilson
    Backup: Dowling

    Wilson is the go to guy for covering TEs. I also think BB wants to blend the safety and CB roles a bit more - Dowling is tall and strong enough to backup Wilson here. Would give him some added versatility if he sticks around.


    FS: McCourty
    Backup: Gregory

    DMc will stay here. Nothing improves a backfield like an experienced FS. It's time for some stability, and DMc represents that. Gregory is adequate in this role.

    SS: Tavon Wilson
    Backup: UDFA/FA

    The team needs a legitimate SS backup, and I think we'll find one in UDFA/FA as a development prospect.

    Buh bye Cole, Williams, etc. Welcome two draft picks and a UDFA/FA.

    ..........All that said, I really want Matt Elam, and if that happens, I think he'll take the Star role and might even be played in the slot, since he can apparently cover there.
  29. Brady_to_Moss

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    #95 Jersey

    you are going to pay top $$ to nmandi? becasue that's what he will want and someone will pay it
  30. DocHoliday

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    Talib and long term commitment

    After 2 subpar years he's not going to get top money. Not only that, but Philly has guaranteed him 4 million this year.
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