Anyone watch FSN last night? (Samuel related)

[MoLewisrocks]

I never watch FSNE, for a good reason. The dolts they employ epitomize self important sports talking heads who believe fans tune in to be entertained by their take/opinion on something rather than informed by something like actual concrete information on an issue. Who knows what concensus they were discussing - most likely the concensus amongst themselves developed around the water cooler pre show. Based on what Asante has said to date. Which is what any of us could conclude might or might not be what he actually does several weeks or even 3-4 months from now.

Until July 15th at least it's all conjecture even if they have sources or quotes. The real litmus test will come a few weeks later, 7-10 days into camp, and the run up to that will just be rhetoric from all sides. Only Asante and his agent and likely Belioli knows if there has been any real interest in him from a trade standpoint to sign him to that deal he IMO dreams about. Although if there was any concrete overwhelming interest in acquiring him I think word of that would have leaked out from some league sources. I haven't heard so much as a whisper of anything resembling that.

Sooner or later teams will come to accept that in evaluating available talent while players here are certainly talented they more often than not do benefit - in some cases dramatically - from the system and scheme and coaching and balanced talent level Belioli assmebles around them as part of their team building philosophy. Branch's trade set the bar at a 2008 first as a minimum, and coupled with Asante's reported contract demands it's buyer beware that this player is really worth that. If he were, given our cap position, there would not be such a tremendous gulf between what this organization - to whom like Branch he should be most valuable - has offered and what the player believes he's worth.

Asante had an exceptional season, at least statistically speaking, last year. He is not, on his own merits, a top 5 or probably even top ten talent at the position. Those players are impact players - the kind you acquire to build/upgrade a secondary or even defense around. He's a very good player with excellent ballhawking skills which 4 years in he has developed well to use to tremendous advantage when he is surrounded by a top 5 defense with a pro bowl caliber front 7 and equally instinctive safety support.

Gee...sounds remarkeably like the assessment of WR Deion Branch, whose talents (and he had some) were well suited to this offense and QB but who was and is not an elite #1 WR in his own right.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Since when? The last report said Dre Bly money.

Hell, Clements money isn't really Clements Money from the reports on the actual contract. The last 2 years are fake and they take like 30 mill or something off the contract.

If he wants fake money, I say, let's give him fake money!!!

(But we shouldn't structure the contract the way Clement's is!)

 

[PaulNEPats]

I would really like to see teams stand up to players who do this, and let them sit out for the year. No trades, no caving in to extraneous demands from the player. Otherwise players are going to keep pulling this crap. If the Players Union didn't like players being slapped with the Franchise Tag, they had a chance to address it in the last CBA.

 

[Isaac]

The Patriots reportedly offered 6 millionish a year and thats what Bly got. Samuel wants 8 million a year, what Clements is getting. That is Clements money.

Clements is not getting 8 million a year even if he plays out his full contract.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Well if some team is willing to pay him what he wants, he's certainly worth a 1st and a 3rd. Let him go. We'll be fine.

 

[patchick]

It sounds plausible and, if true, likely means that Samuel does nto suit up when they tee it up in Sept. Definitiely hurts boths sides. Lose-lose. He can still report for game 10 and get credit for the season...

It definitely looks like a lose-lose. So let's try to imagine it from Samuel's perspective. Why would he do this?

1. Concludes that a long-term contract with his current team isn't the way to maximize his cash; wants to take a chance at somebody getting silly in the FA market.
ok, that's rational enough

2. Wants that NOW not in another year
who wouldn't?

3. Sees how Branch forced a trade and decides that looks like a good plan
risky...branch might have burned that bridge, pats are likely determined not to let that become a precedent

4. Assuming no trade forthcoming, decides to hold his ground, knowing that he only has to report by game 10 to earn his freedom. No camp, no practice, no first half of the season to risk injury. Cost: $4.4 million.
hold on...$4.4 million? guaranteed? so samuel would have to sign a FA contract with up-front money $4.4+ higher than the pats would offer to make this strategy successful. while factoring the risk of injury or just plain lousy play due to extreme rust. plus the subtler risk that the pats' secondary looks just fine without him, calling up visions of al those big-money ex-Pat FAs who didn't look the part once you took them out of BB's team. plus marquise hill serving as a stark reminder that you cannot take the future for granted.


Nope, I wouldn't do it. I'd sign the tender with a week or so remaining in TC, late enough to make the team squirm but not so late as to screw myself.

 

[Frezo]

4. Assuming no trade forthcoming, decides to hold his ground, knowing that he only has to report by game 10 to earn his freedom. No camp, no practice, no first half of the season to risk injury. Cost: $4.4 million.
hold on...$4.4 million? guaranteed? so samuel would have to sign a FA contract with up-front money $4.4+ higher than the pats would offer to make this strategy successful. while factoring the risk of injury or just plain lousy play due to extreme rust. plus the subtler risk that the pats' secondary looks just fine without him, calling up visions of al those big-money ex-Pat FAs who didn't look the part once you took them out of BB's team. plus marquise hill serving as a stark reminder that you cannot take the future for granted.


Nope, I wouldn't do it. I'd sign the tender with a week or so remaining in TC, late enough to make the team squirm but not so late as to screw myself.

Doesn't he have to sign the tender for the week ten reporting issue to become valid? Right now he has no contract at all. Doesn't he have to be under contract for the week ten rule to be usuable? This is a confusing issue, (at least for me).

 

[Pats726]

It definitely looks like a lose-lose. So let's try to imagine it from Samuel's perspective. Why would he do this?

1. Concludes that a long-term contract with his current team isn't the way to maximize his cash; wants to take a chance at somebody getting silly in the FA market.
ok, that's rational enough

2. Wants that NOW not in another year
who wouldn't?

3. Sees how Branch forced a trade and decides that looks like a good plan
risky...branch might have burned that bridge, pats are likely determined not to let that become a precedent

4. Assuming no trade forthcoming, decides to hold his ground, knowing that he only has to report by game 10 to earn his freedom. No camp, no practice, no first half of the season to risk injury. Cost: $4.4 million.
hold on...$4.4 million? guaranteed? so samuel would have to sign a FA contract with up-front money $4.4+ higher than the pats would offer to make this strategy successful. while factoring the risk of injury or just plain lousy play due to extreme rust. plus the subtler risk that the pats' secondary looks just fine without him, calling up visions of al those big-money ex-Pat FAs who didn't look the part once you took them out of BB's team. plus marquise hill serving as a stark reminder that you cannot take the future for granted.


Nope, I wouldn't do it. I'd sign the tender with a week or so remaining in TC, late enough to make the team squirm but not so late as to screw myself.

5..He also is assuming that the Pats aren't pulling the offer...while he would be a free agent that Franchise money is off the table gone...and while I do NOT think the Pats would do that...it..it's a gamble and I think a big one...in teh larger picture..IF the Pats are all set without him..he may be expendable..and what other teams may wish to pay may NOT be what he wants..it's more a low ball situation..

 

[PatsSteve1]

They had some Patriots beat reporter on there. Cant remember his name, but hes almost sure that theres a growing consensus that Samuel is not going to report to TC or play during the regular season if he is not given a multi year contract (to what he thinks hes worth) and if he is not given his worth he will ask to be traded or he will sit out the season.

He also believed that he will not sign the Franchise tender.

* I'll believe this when it happens. I still think he'll sign the tag in last TC and play.

 

[Miguel]

The way Miguel explained it to me, if I understood, the Patriots would get a week by week credit for next year. They've paid him nothing but the money counts against the cap. So if he sat out the year, he'd get no money (but owe none as he wouldn't be paid). But the money counting against the '07 cap would be credited to '08. If he sits out 10 games, he only gets paid for the games he plays in and we get a week by week credit on the cap for games he misses. No idea on the accrued year.

This is what I actuallysaid.
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...read.php?p=404300&highlight=samuel#post404300

"If Samuel were to hold out, the Patriots would free up around 458,235 in cap space for each week Samuel missed. The Pats would have to do the phony LTBE move on another player's contract in order to be able to move some, if not all, freed up cap space to the 2008 season. The Patriots could decide to use the cap space on injury replacements or extensions."

 

[Miguel]

Clements is not getting 8 million a year even if he plays out his full contract.

FWIW - he would get more than that.
See
http://www.patscap.com/clememts.gif

 

[DaBruinz]

Clements is not getting 8 million a year even if he plays out his full contract.

Yes, actually, he is. He's actually getting more than 9 million a year.

http://www.49ersparadise.com/resources/contract.shtml#nclements07

 

[Miguel]

FWIW - he would get more than that.
See
http://www.patscap.com/clememts.gif

Corrected URL.
http://www.patscap.com/clements.gif

 

[Miguel]

http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Article_XX_Franchise_and_Transition_Players.pdf

may be of help.

Especially this section:

"If a Franchise Player does not play in the NFL in a League Year, his Prior Team shall have the right to designate such player as a Franchise Player or a Transition Player the following League Year, if such designation is otherwise available to the Team, except that the applicable tender must be made and any 120% tender shall be measured from the Player’s prior year salary. If such a player is redesignated as a Franchise Player for the League Year following the League Year in which he does not play, the player may be designated only under Section 2(a)(i) above, except that Draft Choice Compensation of only one first round draft selection and one third round draft selection shall be made with respect to such player in the event he signs with the New Club. If such a player is designated as a Franchise Player for a third time, the terms of Section 2(b) above, shall apply. If a Franchise Player who has sufficient Accrued Seasons to become an Unrestricted Free Agent is not designated as a Franchise Player or Transition Player for any League Year immediately following a League Year in which he does not play, then on the first day of that League Year, the player becomes an Unrestricted
December 6, 2006 DRAFT
ARTICLE XX
FRANCHISE AND TRANSITION PLAYERS (CONT.)
Free Agent and is completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club is completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with such player, without penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind, or any signing period."

 

[PATSNUTme]

There is no reason for him to report until the week before the regular season begins, unless he signs a long term deal. If he is still under the franchise tag, he doesn't lose a dime if he reports to play for the first game. He doesn't gain a dime by reporting for mini-camp or TC.

This may not be a bad thing either. It would be one less guy that we have to worry about getting injured during the pre-season. But, he will report for the first game. He's not stupid enough to lose $450,000, which was about what he made all of last year.

 

[Krugman]

Dont want to lose him either.There are lots of players disgruntled with the franchise tag this year,Briggs,Assante,maybe Freeney,the bottom line is they do ok by this,if they do get injured,what type of compensation are they looking at?(As they all say, what happens to my family......) Just curios....

 

[Warren94]

Kelly Herndon got cut from the seahawks. Maybe sign him for depth.?

 

[Vern]

This is what I actuallysaid.
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...read.php?p=404300&highlight=samuel#post404300

"If Samuel were to hold out, the Patriots would free up around 458,235 in cap space for each week Samuel missed. The Pats would have to do the phony LTBE move on another player's contract in order to be able to move some, if not all, freed up cap space to the 2008 season. The Patriots could decide to use the cap space on injury replacements or extensions."

But this is only if he signs the tender, but doesn't show up, right? If he simply chooses not to sign the offer, then there's zero cap hit since he's not even under contract.

As for stuff others have posted in this thread...
Also, the whole "ten game" thing is not a factor here. Branch needed one more accrued season to get out of his rookie deal - which meant playing in at least 6 games. Samuel's rookie deal is over and he's ALREADY a full Free Agent. He's just under the franchise tag which means the Pats get compensated if some other team decides to sign him. I saw Morrey on FSNE screw this up last night was shocked a guy who used to write for Pats Football Weekly didn't even get that right.

This also means there will be no "go have a week to talk trades if you want" offer from the Pats because Samuel is already free to talk to any team out there and try to work a deal. This is because the Pats did not use the Exclusive Rights Franchise Tag.

Finally, there won't be any 20% rule kicking in if they tag him next year because that's only there if you're already the highest paid at the position. Assuming the rate keeps going up for CBs, the "average of the top five" will still kick in for 2008.

 

[Miguel]

But this is only if he signs the tender, but doesn't show up, right?

No.

If he simply chooses not to sign the offer, then there's zero cap hit since he's not even under contract.

Once the Pats placed the tag on Samuel, he counted against the cap. Once a team makes a tender offer, the amount of the tender counts against the cap even while the player has not signed the tender.

 

[Isaac]

Corrected URL.
http://www.patscap.com/clements.gif

Ope, sorry, I've corrected folks on the 8 years/80 million part of this deal so many times that I didn't do the math here! Sorry. Yes, at best it's a 7 year/64 million deal which is over 9 million/year. He'd have to be playing well to see the final two years, but the cap may be high enough then that those salaries won't be prohibitive.