Anyone Questioning the Value of a Good Kicker Now?

[Bella*chick]

Why does there need to be a "point" to the thread? It's a discussion board, nobody's forcing you to read anything. Get back to work if you don't like it.

I do think that Vinatieri was worth the money. I've seen Gostowski so far shanking kicks in pressure situations. The preseason doesn't apply here, because the point is that a kicker that can react to the pressure of making that kick in the final .30 of a game is rare, and its one of those things that you should hold onto when you find it.

We'll see. Maybe I'm wrong. I HOPE I'm wrong. If he hits some clutch FG or if the Pats win every playoff game they play in by 13, I'll be the dummy.

Kickers that go 41 for 45 in a season are not especially rare. The guys that hit the game winners over and over again are. I disagree with the decision not to re-sign Vinatieri. I only make the post because last night looked like how a few of the Pats legendary playoff victories could have turned out if we hadn't had such magic in the kicking game.

Good luck Ghost. Prove me wrong.

You still have not even acknowledged that AV is hurt. HURT. HE IS NOT PLAYING AT ALL.

How would paying him millions have helped us?

 

[Grizzafted]

You still have not even acknowledged that AV is hurt. HURT. HE IS NOT PLAYING AT ALL.

How would paying him millions have helped us?

Come on, that's not a fair point.

He got injured in Indianapolis. There's no saying that he would have gotten hurt if he was still in NE.

 

[minvardar]

What I like about Gotskowski the most is his kickoffs. The most TB's Vinatieri ever had were 10 in one year. Gotskowski already has 7 this year in 5 games.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think I will ever forget the disgust and amazement I was in last night. Who was it, Theisman or even Barkley who was saying the Cards (earlier in the game) were playing scared and should be going for 7 not 3. They were so 100% dead on, I actually don't begrudge Theisman being in the booth for once. The Cards were scared ****less! And they deserved to lose the game.

THe thing is, what AV had is so rare. But the title of this thread should not be "questioning the value of a good kicker." Because Rackers IS a good kicker, and other good kickers, like Vanderjerk, routinely blow pressure kicks. The thread should be "Anyone questioning what we once had in Adam." (and I don't think anyone does) Because THAT was indeed special. However, Adam is getting old. He is not even on the field most of the time with his new team. We couldn't have Adam kicking with us forever.

Gostkowski is still a blank page to many of us. I'm interested to see how it plays out.

I believe that was a comment actually made by the booth when Chicago down by 20 went for 3 in the third quarter. Those were however the only 3 points they scored on offense all night, and since they won by 1 and Rackers choked under pressure (he's made 5 of 7 game winning kicks in his 7 year career) and Grossman was an INT machine that may have been the only choice.

As for Rackers, he is not a very good kicker. 2005 was the kind of fluke season that would lead me to wonder if he tried, for a time with his all important second and potentially final because of lacklustre performance contract season on the line, putting more than milk on his Wheaties...

He was abyssmal in Cincinatti and lost his job because even while improving form a sub 60% to 83% FG kicker in his third and final season there, he finished that season with a horendous 55 yard KO average.

His KO's initially improved by 4-5 yards as would be expected kicking in the desert and a warm weather/indoor division, but it wasn't until 2004 that he suddenly "found" another 12 yards or so in KO distance - although his FG accuracy remained a sub par 75% albeit while making 5-9 from 50+... His FG accuracy didn't catch up to his "developing" leg strength until last season when he suddenly morphed into a 95% FG kicker harnessing his suddenly amazing leg strength on the eve of his new deal that now included a $2.8M signing bonus.

With that money now safetly in the bank he has suddenly begun to regress to the mean. His KO's are down a yard and a half and his FG accuracy has plummeted to 64%.

Adam's value was in reliability and consistency, and until this summer durability.

 

[Bella*chick]

Come on, that's not a fair point.

He got injured in Indianapolis. There's no saying that he would have gotten hurt if he was still in NE.

Well, it is a fair point when you consider that among the many reasons they let AV go had to be his advancing age, his declining skills, the fact that he didn't want to be here anyway weighed against his asking price. Age and decline can mean an increased propensity to injury.

Mo, thanks for the Rackers info. Very interesting.

 

[Grizzafted]

Oh Come On.

This isn't a halfback or an interior lineman we're talking about here.

Gary Anderson gets a discounted bus fare, and isn't he still kicking for the Falcons? He was kicking well 20 years into his career.

 

[the taildragger]

* start at 38 yard line
* 178 seconds
* 2 Timeouts
* 2-Min Warning
* weapons: Boldin, Edge
* situation: WEEK 6

compared to:
* start at 17 yard line
* 81 seconds
* 0 Timeouts
* no 2-min warning
* weapons: Troy, J.R.R.
* situation: SUPER BOWL

Yeah, those drives are virtually identical.

And as far as the kicks go, one was from behind, one was in a tie game...ever consider the difference? MAJOR DIFFERENCE IN PRESSURE KICKING WHEN BEHIND THAN WHEN TIED.

 

[Bella*chick]

Oh Come On.

This isn't a halfback or an interior lineman we're talking about here.

Gary Anderson gets a discounted bus fare, and isn't he still kicking for the Falcons? He was kicking well 20 years into his career.

Morton Anderson, you mean.

And if the Pats were at all concerned that an aging Adam might be injury prone, you can scoff all you want, but the fact is HE DID GET INJURED. And he hasn't played in a few weeks. That's a fact. You can say oh, it might not have happened here, but chances are pretty darn good that it would have happened here and we'd be overpaying for nothing.

Those are the risks and decisions a prudent FO has to take. No one has a crystal ball. It's very easy to live in the past, but that's how great teams become bloated, bad ones. So far, seeing as Grammatica has been kicking for the Colts, I don't see how the decision was a bad one for our FO at all.

And just to repeat, in a situation like last night's game, the Cardinals blew a 20 point lead in a most asinine fashion without any help at all from their kicker. If our team got in anywhere near the situation the Cards team did last night, we would have WAY more problems to worry about than a clutch kicker, because we wouldn't be going ANYWHERE NEAR the playoffs.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

* start at 38 yard line
* 178 seconds
* 2 Timeouts
* 2-Min Warning
* weapons: Boldin, Edge
* situation: WEEK 6

compared to:
* start at 17 yard line
* 81 seconds
* 0 Timeouts
* no 2-min warning
* weapons: Troy, J.R.R.
* situation: SUPER BOWL

Yeah, those drives are virtually identical.

And as far as the kicks go, one was from behind, one was in a tie game...ever consider the difference? MAJOR DIFFERENCE IN PRESSURE KICKING WHEN BEHIND THAN WHEN TIED.

One was kicking from 41, the other from 48. One was being asked to take his offense and ST's off the hook for throwing the game away to a team whose offense could only score 3 points in 59 and a half minutes. The other was being asked to take his defense off the hook for giving up 2 TD's in the 4th quarter lest that team win a coin toss with all the momentum on thier side. In a Superbowl. When his offense hadn't scored but 1 TD just before the half.

Rackers doesn't know what pressure is. Adam was 19 of 20 game winning kicks with less than a minute remaining. 19 for 19 in the Belichick era. His only miss came while Tommy was topping off his college career with an Orange Bowl campaign for Michigan.

 

[Grizzafted]

And that's not worth 3 mil a year!?

Okay, this is rehashing two months ago at this point, but that's what I'm saying. 19 of 19 game winners.... Jesus. I'll take that over Randy Moss ANY DAY.

 

[RayClay]

So Leinart looks as much like Brady as anyone I've seen in the last five years, takes the Arizona Cardinals 50 yards down the field on arguably a top-three defensive unit, brings the ball to the 20 a la SBs XVIII and XVI, and.....bam, kicker blows it from 40 yards out.

Do you trust Gostkowski in that situation? Who is Brady if he has Gostowski kicking for him the last few years? Maybe 1-1 in the Superbowl?

I've said it before, and last night punctuated the point: letting Vinatieri go was a horrible move, worse than Branch, Law, or McGinest. I really hope that doesn't come back to bite the Pats in the ass, especially considering that this year's team is not exactly built for speed.

*bye week panic attack over*
(but, seriously, I'm not seeing good things out of their kicking game. Can he make that 40 yarder? He's going to have to at least once or twice this year.)

We have a good kicker. He has a stronger leg than Vinateiri. If we had been panickers, we would have cut Adam after his second game when he missed 3 field goals.

Take a pill.

 

[arrellbee]

So Leinart looks as much like Brady as anyone I've seen in the last five years, takes the Arizona Cardinals 50 yards down the field on arguably a top-three defensive unit, brings the ball to the 20 a la SBs XVIII and XVI, and.....bam, kicker blows it from 40 yards out.

Do you trust Gostkowski in that situation? Who is Brady if he has Gostowski kicking for him the last few years? Maybe 1-1 in the Superbowl?

I've said it before, and last night punctuated the point: letting Vinatieri go was a horrible move, worse than Branch, Law, or McGinest. I really hope that doesn't come back to bite the Pats in the ass, especially considering that this year's team is not exactly built for speed.

*bye week panic attack over*
(but, seriously, I'm not seeing good things out of their kicking game. Can he make that 40 yarder? He's going to have to at least once or twice this year.)

Well, so you have now said it again.

Out of curiosity, when do you think Vinatieri would have been over the hill and not as productive as a top rookie kicker ?? When he missed the winning field goal in the next superbowl from 48 yards out ?

And would it perhaps have been better to give the signing bonus and several million to Viatieri rather than - who ?? Koppen ? Samuels ? Graham ? Money for 2 first round picks next year ? A premier receiver or DB next year ?

Oh, and how would you have won the game against Buffalo (2 point win) when the stat folks figure that Gostkowski's kickoff depth means about 4.5 points per game worth to the Patriots ?

Just curious.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Why does there need to be a "point" to the thread? It's a discussion board, nobody's forcing you to read anything. Get back to work if you don't like it.

I do think that Vinatieri was worth the money.

C'mon Grizz, you "are" trying to make a "point" and start a discussion. The problem I have is your rehashing something decided months ago, and being pretty disingenuous about the whole thing.

The purpose of your point is to create discord in the forum.

If you don't like the rookie kicker, don't buy his jersey and heckle him from the stands. Nobody here is making you take time from your busy schedule to mourn the guy sitting in the luxury box with the rest of the inactives. Since you choose to do so, you should be posting in the interleague forum where the troll hunters can play with you and keep you entertained.

 

[Grizzafted]

The purpose of your point is to create discord in the forum.

If you don't like the rookie kicker, don't buy his jersey and heckle him from the stands. Nobody here is making you take time from your busy schedule to mourn the guy sitting in the luxury box with the rest of the inactives. Since you choose to do so, you should be posting in the interleague forum where the troll hunters can play with you and keep you entertained.

I figured it out, the box of rocks is your head, right?

I think you're taking the internet a little bit too seriously, pal. "create discord in the forum." What the hell is this, a lifeboat, and we're splitting up crackers? Relax.

I'm a die hard Patriots fan and I don't think it's a problem for me to piss and moan a little bit about something I see as a bad move, even after the fact. Watching the game last night made me appreciate the value of a clutch kicker. I don't agree that a good kickoff leg is better than a dependable 3 points when it counts. I have nothing against Gostkowski, but I think the Pats have a very legitimate shot to make a deep playoff run and he, to me, is a bigger question mark than our WRs or secondary.

If you read my posts and get all freaked out and "discorded" then maybe you have larger problems than a message board can address anyway.

 

[brady2brown]

So Leinart looks as much like Brady as anyone I've seen in the last five years, takes the Arizona Cardinals 50 yards down the field on arguably a top-three defensive unit, brings the ball to the 20 a la SBs XVIII and XVI, and.....bam, kicker blows it from 40 yards out.

If you're saying Rackers isn't a good kicker, you are wrong. He is good. If you are saying that unless you make every important kick, you aren't good, then you are wrong again.

I cannot think of any kicker who has not missed an important kick. And the most accurate kicker in hte history of the NFL misses about one out of eight kicks (87.5%). Good kickers miss one out of five (80%) and average kickers one out of 4 (75%).

Just becasue Rackers missed does not mean he isn't a very good kicker. He is.

Gostkowski will be fine. COme in off the ledge.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I figured it out, the box of rocks is your head, right?

I think you're taking the internet a little bit too seriously, pal. "create discord in the forum." What the hell is this, a lifeboat, and we're splitting up crackers? Relax.

I'm a die hard Patriots fan and I don't think it's a problem for me to piss and moan a little bit about something I see as a bad move, even after the fact. Watching the game last night made me appreciate the value of a clutch kicker. I don't agree that a good kickoff leg is better than a dependable 3 points when it counts. I have nothing against Gostkowski, but I think the Pats have a very legitimate shot to make a deep playoff run and he, to me, is a bigger question mark than our WRs or secondary.

If you read my posts and get all freaked out and "discorded" then maybe you have larger problems than a message board can address anyway.

Tough life isn't it? According to a recent new poster's cap project, Special Teams percentage of cap space is roughly half of what is was last season. I'm sure that helped re-sign a Center - a position a heck of a lot more valuable than your much mourned kicker - to a top five salary.

You act like you've never had to deal with training replacements before, most who have look at Gostkowski with approval, he's developing nicely. But your into instant gratification, lying on the floor pounding your fists and kicking your feet, gimme, gimme. Your pissing and moaning well after the fact is troll-like behavior. A "diehard" fan who has followed this club and made an effort to understand the team building strategy might just see the positive in the situation. It's a good thing the team started off 4-1, you might feel the need to hold your breath until you turn blue.

 

[Oswlek]

I figured it out, the box of rocks is your head, right?

I think you're taking the internet a little bit too seriously, pal. "create discord in the forum." What the hell is this, a lifeboat, and we're splitting up crackers? Relax.

I'm a die hard Patriots fan and I don't think it's a problem for me to piss and moan a little bit about something I see as a bad move, even after the fact. Watching the game last night made me appreciate the value of a clutch kicker. I don't agree that a good kickoff leg is better than a dependable 3 points when it counts. I have nothing against Gostkowski, but I think the Pats have a very legitimate shot to make a deep playoff run and he, to me, is a bigger question mark than our WRs or secondary.

If you read my posts and get all freaked out and "discorded" then maybe you have larger problems than a message board can address anyway.

Assuming that NE is playing their cards moderately well and they are going to continue to be a good team for the next 5 years, cutting the Vinatieri umbilical cord was an eventuallity anyway. So NE was going to have to go into a season with "a very legitimate shot to make a deep playoff run" and a replacement kicker at some point. It was just a matter of time

I have heard a phrase several times, "Better to let a guy go too early than too late." The moves that the Pats have made in recent years are based on this belief. Adam's departure is just another example of this.

If it makes you feel any better, go around the list of NFL teams and ask yourself if you think that they are without flaw. For every team that you feel has a dependable kicker, I can point out a problem that is likely to be a larger concern than that.

 

[the taildragger]

One was kicking from 41, the other from 48. One was being asked to take his offense and ST's off the hook for throwing the game away to a team whose offense could only score 3 points in 59 and a half minutes. The other was being asked to take his defense off the hook for giving up 2 TD's in the 4th quarter lest that team win a coin toss with all the momentum on thier side. In a Superbowl. When his offense hadn't scored but 1 TD just before the half.

ok, so the drives are comparable in your mind because we ended up 7 yards farther back?

Then the following factors are just irrelevant:
- starting field position! MAJOR DIFFERENCE
- time remaining! MAJOR DIFFERENCE
- clock stoppages remaining! MAJOR DIFFERENCE
- weapons at your disposal! AGAIN, MAJOR FRIGGIN DIFFERENCE

we couldn't even play the middle of the field without losing a down on a spike or an intentional incompletion. both were Lovie Smith defenses by the way.

Please analyze the constraints involved before evaluating the result or ending position of a drive...it kind of matters.

it's about perspective too...if you think a drive -- any drive (more less that one) -- IN WEEK SIX has anything to do with a Super Bowl winning drive, you are INSANE.

No kicker ever had a game like Josh Brown did yesterday...but I thought Adam was the only one who could make big kicks....now I'm like totally confused.

 

[edgecy]

Until Gost misses a kick in the SuperBowl that results in a loss for us... no, I don't think he's worse than AV.

Again, what happened last night was just plain dumb. Well over a minute left and you were left with a 1st and 10. So what you do? You play scared and play for a FG when you could've gotten another first down to make the kick easier, but.... no, you play scared. And you lose the game.

BB would have never done something this dumb. Not when the offense was so well moving down the field.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well first of all Neil Rackers was the best kicker in the NFL last year. Would you disagree with that? So as far as I know he is a good kicker that just missed an important kick. If he keeps missing them then he's going to lose his job. That's true of any kicker. But I don't think he will lost his job just over last night. I think last night was an example of a huge momentum swing and an organization finding ways to lose.

Now if you are taking potshots at Gostkowski who thus far hasn't even had an opportunity at a big kick yet I think that's unfair. Let the kid prove himself first BEFORE you start dumping on him.

Now what exactly was the point of this thread again?