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Anyone else still think Samuel is overrated

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  1. nepatz11

    nepatz11 Rookie

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    I still think Samuel is overated. Does anyone have access to any statistics about how Samuel does compared to other cornerbacks in the league in terms of QB rating against, completion percentage against, touchdown ratio against etc. I remember being really unimpressed by his numbers when I heard them and I also remember Hobbs having better numbers. I could be wrong and I would love someone to prove me so.
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I've been looking for those same numbers and heard the same thing you did, that Hobbs #s were basically the same. I remember Holley talking about the #s on EEI to refute some of Felger's garbage re: Hobbs, but I haven't found them since.

    The only thing I found was DB success rates through 12 weeks of the season on Football Outsiders and Samuel was towards the top of the league. But old friend Ty Law was just slightly beneath him, FYI.
  3. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    We could be looking at a combo here.

    IMO and I know some people will bash me for it but I think Hobbs is underrated.

    So comparing a supposed overated player to IMO an underrated player yuo are going to get two guys close in stats and skill with a precieved large gap in talent though.

    Even if he is a little overrated I still want him back as we have no one better to replace him with, and don't forget anyone on the market will cost you pretty much the same $.
  4. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    I think Hobbs is underrated and gets picked on even when something wasn't his fault.

    Now I'll say that Samuel isn't overrated when it comes to jumping routes, as I think he's very good at that particular skill. But, as a shutdown cover man I do think he's at least somewhat overrated. I've seen him get beat just as often as Hobbs (if not more in some games), yet a lot of fans continued thinking of his as irreplaceable. The fact that he doesn't like flipping sides also limits his overall ability to shutdown the apposing teams best WR. In reality Hobbs was matched up against the other teams no.1 WR more frequently, and (if you actually bother looking at the numbers) Hobbs held his own. Also, some of teams started taking advantage of Asante's risk taking as the season moved along (they started faking the out and he'd sometimes bite). I also think the soft zone NE's employed over the past few years was suited more to Asante's playing style, than Hobbs.

    Heck, everyone remembers Plaxico's TD in the SB, but it seems most forget he only cought two passes for something like 27 yards in that game. It wasn't because NE's defensive line pressured Manning either (he got plenty of protection), but that Hobbs had blanket coverage for most of the game.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  5. BadMoFo

    BadMoFo Rookie

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    Just think of it this way: Who do you get upset with more on any Sunday? I'm sure your answer is Hobbs about 5 to 10 times more than Samuel.

    All of a sudden he's overrated because he's as good as gone. Please. :rolleyes:
  6. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    No..a lot of people thought the Franchise tag was a bit of a stretch..based on half of a season..I think he might be a bit over rated..nothing at all to do with the fact he is leaving..I think some team will pay a LOT for him..over pay IMO.
  7. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    samuel is not overrated he is one of the best cover coners in the nfl but i do think hobbs is underrated most of the time hobbs was covering the outher teams best WR and for the most part stoped them plex beat him in the SB yes but i dont care if u have champ bailey there was no reason for plex to be one on one with less then a mn left in the game on there 10 yerd line
  8. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    i don't know about this past season, but i thought he was the #1 cb in 06 or 05 according to football outsiders
  9. BadMoFo

    BadMoFo Rookie

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    Overpaid? Compared to who, you?

    Nate Clements set the standard last year, and that is what the better cornerbacks in the league are going to be paid from now on. I wouldn't call it being overpaid.
  10. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    A guy can be overated and still be great....

    this is one of my pet peaves. People hear the word over rated and immediately think you are saying someone is bad.

    No one is arguing wether samuels is good, some people just think the perception is he is better than he really is.he could be 99% of what people think he is and he would be overrated but still extremely good.
  11. Remix 6

    Remix 6 Rookie

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    exactly..if you want a good CB..theres really no way around the money..especially the younger guys

    Bailey said he hopes they set the standard higher..so basically he'll be lookin for that money. its a shame ..but to have the best ones, you gotta pay them like it
  12. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I thought franchising him was a stretch... CAN u read that and understand that? I think he was overpaid..plain simple..That is MY opinion..if you don't like it TS...I think the Pats would sign him if it was a reasonable contract..not happening.. By the way your insult shows more what u are about.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  13. Deus Irae

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    Some of us have been saying that Samuel is overrated for a lot longer than 10 minutes. Last season, Hobbs was the team's #1 cb before getting hurt. This season, Hobbs' numbers stacked up quote nicely against Samuel's.

    It's not that people suddenly think that Samuel sucks, it's that people saw him getting exposed as a bit overrated down the stretch. He doesn't have great recovery speed and he gambles a lot, which makes him succeptible to the pump fakes. He's not particularly physical and he seems to need more help over the top than Hobbs does. He's a good cornerback, but he's not a top 5 type of cornerback. Then again, when I said that prior to the season, people told me I was crazy, so take the opinion for what it's worth.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  14. Underoath

    Underoath Rookie

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    Well, if Hobbs had similar numbers, it's because he doesn't go up against the team's #1 receiver every game. Also, if their numbers are the same, but Samuel has more INT's, Samuel is clearly better.
  15. Deus Irae

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    You should try watching some games some day. Hobbs is up against the opposing #1 quite often, and he gave up fewer touchdowns than Samuel.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  16. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    As usual I enjoy reading your take.

    I agree that Asante's preference to stay on one side truly diminishes his value to us or to any team.

    Do you think we will continue to employ the same soft zone coverage next season? And where do you think the occasional problems in coverage came from this season - lack of pressure, LBs coverage skills, the soft zone/bend don't break, safety coverage...a combination of factors? I think the CBs are quite low on the list in terms of who is to blame for deficiencies in pass defense that arose towards the end of the season and reared its head in the final quarter of the Super Bowl. Meriweather's inclusion in the starting lineup of the Super Bowl tells me they intend to start him next season, which, IMO, should mean better coverage from the safety position.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  17. pao

    pao Rookie

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    I think Hobbs is VASTLY underated and would love to have him on the Chargers even though I hate his ass right now because of his dance on the Chargers logo last year. LOL.

    pao
  18. MoLewisrocks

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    He tied for the league lead in INTS in 2006, but he wasn't worth a bag of balls by anyone's metric in 2005, believe me. Rodney went down, he was playing opposite Starks and Eugene disappeared, Bruschi was out until the bye, TJ had retired, Vrabel had to move inside, and our secondary was the butt of jokes. Then Hawkins was picked up and rookie Ellis Hobbs was inserted to replace Starks and the entire unit performed better down the stretch.

    In training camp in 2006 Hobbs was the starting LCB. Asante was not happy and said he was uncomfortable playing on the right. But Hobbs held the position through the start of the regular season until he broke his scaphoid (wrist), same injury Bruschi suffered, and they moved Hobbs back to RCB and he played through the injury with his wrist in a cast all season. 'Sante started out slow in 2006, then hit the daily double when he picked 6 off of the dynamic duo of Grossman and Culpepper. That was when the league suddenly noticed Asante and his pro bowl caliber...INTS.

    This season he had 6 picks in the regular season, none down the stretch after week 12. He had 1 in the playoffs. Hobbs had 1 pick down the stretch (against the Giants...) and 2 in the playoffs playing with a sports hernia. He also had more tackles and passes defensed in the playoffs. And gave up fewer TD's... And while Asante had 5 more picks in the regular season, he didn't have a forced fumble or sack, and Hobbs did.
  19. Deus Irae

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    I think that what we see from this team is an overall 'problem' that people keep trying to find a scapegoat for. Many people seem to be crying about the age of the linebackers, for example. Others bemoan the pass rush. To me, what seems glaringly apparent is that this team has no speed merchant on the defense. The corners aren't fast corners, the linebackers aren't fast linebackers, and the starting safeties aren't fast safeties. It's not that they are all snails, it's that there's not a single roadrunner in the bunch.

    The result of this is that "do your job" becomes more important, and freelancing kills the team defense (See Samuel, Asante v. Giants in week 17). It also results in the famous plays we see when the Patriots succeed in breaking a play down but not making the immediate tackle, such as when a QB gets flushed from the pocket.
  20. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    This is why I think we'll be fine with Gay and some depth behind him and draft at least one rookie to groom plus you have Richardson.

    It just stinks letting Asante leave for no compensation. Even the transition tag would have been nice.

    Invest the money in other spots.
  21. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    You don't think Hobbs is fast? How come he's returning kickoffs?

    Colvin is a pretty good speed rusher. AD has more top end speed like Moss versus quickness like Welker.

    We need another speed rusher, even if it's a one trick pony for obvious passing downs.
  22. Deus Irae

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    As I said, they aren't snails. But Prime Time isn't patrolling the defense for New England, either.

    By the way, Hobbs, whom I'm a defender of, is one of those guys with a 40 time that has had a lot of variance. He's been clocked at 4.55 and also at 4.3. I just don't think his game speed in the current system is 4.3ish.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2008
  23. nepatz11

    nepatz11 Rookie

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    Yes people forget how in early 2005 Samuel could not even get on the field when our pass defense was awful (remember matt schaub torching us?).

    Hobbs I think is so underated. Samuel is a guy who makes big plays but he gets torched a lot for it.Does that make him great? Thats why I would liek to see some stats. I think Samuel is a good CB but question if he is worth shut down money. Im definitely not saying he is a bad player.
  24. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Very interesting points. And maybe that's where Meriweather comes in, as he has greater speed and is an upgrade in coverage ability over Sanders or Harrison.

    And then I think another factor in this general speed issue is the loss of Colvin and moving AD to OLB. The drop off really isn't as much in Colvin to AD, it's in AD to Bruschi/Seau. AD's speed and coverage at ILB is important.

    Those two factors alone (Meriweather starting and AD at ILB for the full season) will improve our defense next season, and I think will outweigh the loss of Samuel, and that's even before getting into free agency and the draft.
  25. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    Best Success for CB in the nfl was Charles Woodson at 70% samuel was not far back at 62% ty law was right there at 60% Best Yards per Pass samuel was number 2 in the nfl give up only 4.5 Worst Success Lito Sheppard was one of the worst at 41% i guy a lot of people wanted to come to the pats Most thrown at CB in the nfl 80mill doller Nate Clements number 2 Marcus Trufant is number 3 i dont think we want him oh ya Nnamdi Asomugha did not make any of the list because he did not even have 35 pass thrown hes way wow lol
  26. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Thanks for posting these #s, why do you think we wouldn't want Trufant? If his #s are similar to Samuel and he may come a little cheaper.
  27. PatsandTrojans55

    PatsandTrojans55 Rookie

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    Did I read this correctly? So we should let Asante walk and START "Gay" and we should be just fine because our defensive weakness last year wasn't getting off the field on 3rd down. Meaning our pass rush wasn't as good as it needs to be on 3rd down and you think a Starting tandom of Hobbs and Gay will be fine with no Playmaking free safety and an aging Rodney Harrison. WOW
  28. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    he was one of the most thrown at CB in the nfl that may be because he was covering the outher teams best WR i dont know i did not see to manny of hes game but he is by far there best CB so why would he be thrown at so much ? i could be worng
  29. Rob0729

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    Personally, I do think Samuel is overrated. He is still a very good CB, but he is not an elite or near elite CB.

    The thing that concerns me most about him is late in the season, he converted back to his old self. He seemed to correct the problem with his gambling going for the ball when he should be trying to break up the play, but towards the end of the season he was making the same old poor decisions. If you are going to be a jump route type of CB, you gotta be smart about it. It seems that he got a little too daring.

    I would like to keep Samuel, but probably not at what he is looking for. Personally, I believe you can have average CB especially in today's NFL as long as you have a really good front seven. I don't think a great CB can make up for deficiencies in the front seven as easily.
  30. PatsFanJess

    PatsFanJess Rookie

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    Asomugha is an incredible talent and a genuine guy. Ive heard many reports that hes a quiet guy and a team player and not someone who's just out looking for the big payday. I'm not sure if Oakland has franchised him yet...I still keep praying that somehow they screw it up ( bc they have a knack for that as of late ), and he out on the market. Def. a dream of mine that he makes it to the Pats. Love this guy.
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