Any chance we trade for Randy Moss?

[Digger44]

or how bout dillon and our 2 first round picks to the lions for the #2 pick and calvin johnson, and maybe a 2nd or 3rd back?? johnson and jackson for the next 5 years sounds nice to me.

That is more fanciful that Randy Moss coming to NE.

 

[Rob0729]

We don't run Randy Moss routes because we don't have a receiver who can do that. If we got Randy Moss you think he would average 9 ypc on crossing routes all year? Brady can throw the deep pass and he would if he had someone to throw deep to.

The Pats don't run the routes that Moss runs. They don't run them not because they don't have a receiver like Moss, but because receivers like Moss don't fit into the Pats' system. The Pats run a certain system, and just like you wouldn't put a 225lb LB in our 3-4 ILB position, some players just don't.

Doug Gabriel was a lesser talent Randy Moss and word was we cut him was because his size made it impossible for him to fit into our system.

 

[Rob0729]

We will have to agree to disagree. Even if Collins pulled a 3700+ year there is a reason that he got canned. Try adding collins stats for 2004-5 together and look at the whole picture. 41TD's with 32 INTs and an average passer rating of 76.05. Is this the good years of Collins you are trying to cite?

IMO Moss wouldn't need to have the system custom tailored. I love where Reche & Jabar are right now. They are the type of receiver you are describing. Let Jackson develop, Moss do his thing with disciplined direction, and those two run the schemes. It could work really well.

You claim there are the far better options. What are they?

Collins was cut because he made mistakes and was inconsistent. That wouldn't affect Randy Moss to drop to 1,000 yard WR especially since Jerry Porter had similiar number.

We would definitely have to tailor our offense to accomodate Moss. Our offense is based on short, precise routes. Moss doesn't run them. You can't ask him to do what he isn't designed to do or he is worthless. The only way Moss could come into our system and have us not tailor the system to him and have him be effective is to make him a third or fourth WR and use him situationally.

Brady is all about getting rid of the ball quickly. What made Culpepper and Moss such a dangerous combination is that Culpepper was so hard to bring down and it allowed Moss to have an extra few seconds to burn his defenders. That is why he is so unneffective in Oakland because they don't have the time to let break free because the line doesn't protect.

Personally, I don't want to risk Brady on top of the draft pick and money to make him have to hold onto the ball for a few extra seconds so Moss can be the Moss of 2003. That is another reason why he doesn't fit into our system.

I am trying to look at this objectively. I watched a lot Vikings games in the late 90s and early 2000s and I saw what made Moss so good beyond his God given ability. And it was an offense that was a glorified street flag football game where Moss' route was "go deep" and Culpepper held onto the ball all the way to five Mississippi. This was why I said before the season Culppepper wouldn't fit in Miami. And this is why I say Moss doesn't fit in New England. And that is before I bring up how Moss quit on his team.

 

[Digger44]

Collins was cut because he made mistakes and was inconsistent. That wouldn't affect Randy Moss to drop to 1,000 yard WR especially since Jerry Porter had similiar number.

That is total crap. You just tried to make the argument that a mistake prone and inconsistant QB has nothing to do with the WR output. After an ignorant comment like that there is nothing further to discuss. You just placed a value on your opinion that isn't worth anything. You want facts? Try 41 TDs, 32 INTs, passer rating of 76. That has nothing to do with the WR production?

 

[Rob0729]

That is total crap. You just tried to make the argument that a mistake prone and inconsistant QB has nothing to do with the WR output. After an ignorant comment like that there is nothing further to discuss. You just placed a value on your opinion that isn't worth anything. You want facts? Try 41 TDs, 32 INTs, passer rating of 76. That has nothing to do with the WR production?

Well, if you are going to be an as*hole, I agree with you this discussion is done. Way to win an arguement! Can't argue facts so throw around insults. Goood for you! I used to win arguements this way in fourth grade too.

I come to this board for intelligent discussion and instead this board is plagued with morons like you.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Collins was cut because he made mistakes and was inconsistent. That wouldn't affect Randy Moss to drop to 1,000 yard WR especially since Jerry Porter had similiar number.

We would definitely have to tailor our offense to accomodate Moss. Our offense is based on short, precise routes. Moss doesn't run them. You can't ask him to do what he isn't designed to do or he is worthless. The only way Moss could come into our system and have us not tailor the system to him and have him be effective is to make him a third or fourth WR and use him situationally.

Brady is all about getting rid of the ball quickly. What made Culpepper and Moss such a dangerous combination is that Culpepper was so hard to bring down and it allowed Moss to have an extra few seconds to burn his defenders. That is why he is so unneffective in Oakland because they don't have the time to let break free because the line doesn't protect.

Personally, I don't want to risk Brady on top of the draft pick and money to make him have to hold onto the ball for a few extra seconds so Moss can be the Moss of 2003. That is another reason why he doesn't fit into our system.

I am trying to look at this objectively. I watched a lot Vikings games in the late 90s and early 2000s and I saw what made Moss so good beyond his God given ability. And it was an offense that was a glorified street flag football game where Moss' route was "go deep" and Culpepper held onto the ball all the way to five Mississippi. This was why I said before the season Culppepper wouldn't fit in Miami. And this is why I say Moss doesn't fit in New England. And that is before I bring up how Moss quit on his team.

This is a really good assesment. There is no real need to bring Moss in if we envision him in only being our 3rd WR. At nearly 10 million dollars if that person is not #1 at something then theres no need for them to be on that team.

Collin and Culpepper were throw it deep passers. Moss doesnt go over the middle and he doesnt run routes well.

 

[Digger44]

Well, if you are going to be an as*hole, I agree with you this discussion is done. Way to win an arguement! Can't argue facts so throw around insults. Goood for you! I used to win arguements this way in fourth grade too.

I come to this board for intelligent discussion and instead this board is plagued with morons like you.

your the one who just posted that the QB has nothing to do with the WR output and I am the arse? :rocker: I am a moron because you posted that crap? Ty for the entertainment. If you can't take the criticism then don't post.

 

[Digger44]

This is a really good assesment. There is no real need to bring Moss in if we envision him in only being our 3rd WR. At nearly 10 million dollars if that person is not #1 at something then theres no need for them to be on that team.

Collin and Culpepper were throw it deep passers. Moss doesnt go over the middle and he doesnt run routes well.

Again I am not advocating that we bring him in, but there is no proof whatsoever he does not run routes well. That is total crap that you cannot document or prove it.

The whole discussion was based upon Moss doing a restructure so the cap hit is friendly so your money point has nothing to do with it.

Got some news for ya too. Brady throws a very good deep ball.

 

[Rob0729]

your the one who just posted that the QB has nothing to do with the WR output and I am the arse? :rocker: I am a moron because you posted that crap? Ty for the entertainment. If you can't take the criticism then don't post.

Yep! Because I am intelligent enough to have a civil discussion without insults. That is part of being an adult.

I can take cricism. I don't need to deal with immature babies who can't discuss things like a mature person when having a civil discussion.

I feel sorry for you that you cannot see this.

By the way, when a QB gets tons of yards, his turnovers are not that relevant in a WR's profduction especially since he only had 12 INTs with Moss on the team. You can pad the stats and add his numbers from when Moss was in Minnesotta if you like, but they aren't relevsant. This just adds to your stupidity.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Again I am not advocating that we bring him in, but there is no proof whatsoever he does not run routes well. That is total crap that you cannot document or prove it.

The whole discussion was based upon Moss doing a restructure so the cap hit is friendly so your money point has nothing to do with it.

Got some news for ya too. Brady throws a very good deep ball.

Your right i cant prove it but every Raiders and Vikings fan can tell you the same thing.

Moss would redo his deal. Ok lets go with that fantasy for a moment. What would a Moss extension look like? No less than 7 mill a year.
PASS

I dont care if Brady can throw the ball 95 yards in the air. Thats not the kind of team the Patriots are. The Patriots are a route running fast paced team. West Coast Teams implement the long ball into their plays more often while the Patriots use it very few and far between.

 

[Digger44]

Yep! Because I am intelligent enough to have a civil discussion without insults. That is part of being an adult.

I can take cricism. I don't need to deal with immature babies who can't discuss things like a mature person when having a civil discussion.

I feel sorry for you that you cannot see this.

By the way, when a QB gets tons of yards, his turnovers are not that relevant in a WR's profduction especially since he only had 12 INTs with Moss on the team. You can pad the stats and add his numbers from when Moss was in Minnesotta if you like, but they aren't relevsant. This just adds to your stupidity.

Look, don't blame me for the indefensable idiocy you posted. Kerry Collins sucking at QB with 41 TD's, 32 INT's, and a 76 passer rating in two years is not my stupidity. It is your lack of reality. Anybody who claims that a poor QB has no effect on a WR is delusional. It is that simple.

 

[Rob0729]

Look, don't blame me for the indefensable idiocy you posted. Kerry Collins sucking at QB with 41 TD's, 32 INT's, and a 76 passer rating in two years is not my stupidity. It is your lack of reality. Anybody who claims that a poor QB has no effect on a WR is delusional. It is that simple.

Whatever you say. Are we done?

 

[Digger44]

Your right i cant prove it but every Raiders and Vikings fan can tell you the same thing.

Moss would redo his deal. Ok lets go with that fantasy for a moment. What would a Moss extension look like? No less than 7 mill a year.
PASS

I dont care if Brady can throw the ball 95 yards in the air. Thats not the kind of team the Patriots are. The Patriots are a route running fast paced team. West Coast Teams implement the long ball into their plays more often while the Patriots use it very few and far between.

Well as far as a restructured deal, teams can be very creative with incentive laiden contract without guarenteed money. My whole premis would be that the can be had on the cheap. I agree, no way at 7 million, but an extension where his garenteed money stays over a longer period with incentives in the front would be great. The contract could be backloaded so a cut in 2-3 years makes it easier.

Yes you are right that the Pats are a route running fast paced team, but do not overlook some things that BB has tried. 1. David Patten was the deep threat. While he was decent at route running his talent was the long ball which made the field stretch for the possesion type WR. 2. Bethel Johnson was a failed attempt at a burner to stretch the field, but it was an attempt. 3. Chad Jackson is not the prototypical Pats WR that you described either.
4. The Pats tried to sign Javon Walker who was not the Pats type you described either.

We do not have an honest deep threat right now to keep the defenses honest. We have in the past. Jackson could be it, but who knows?

 

[Digger44]

Whatever you say. Are we done?

Sure, if you are claiming to be such a big man and I am in gradeschool then why havnt you walked away? Facts are facts.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Well as far as a restructured deal, teams can be very creative with incentive laiden contract without guarenteed money. My whole premis would be that the can be had on the cheap. I agree, no way at 7 million, but an extension where his garenteed money stays over a longer period with incentives in the front would be great. The contract could be backloaded so a cut in 2-3 years makes it easier.

Yes you are right that the Pats are a route running fast paced team, but do not overlook some things that BB has tried. 1. David Patten was the deep threat. While he was decent at route running his talent was the long ball which made the field stretch for the possesion type WR. 2. Bethel Johnson was a failed attempt at a burner to stretch the field, but it was an attempt. 3. Chad Jackson is not the prototypical Pats WR that you described either.
4. The Pats tried to sign Javon Walker who was not the Pats type you described either.

We do not have an honest deep threat right now to keep the defenses honest. We have in the past. Jackson could be it, but who knows?

Just knowing Moss as a player i bet he says NO to an incentive laden deal. He's all about guaranteed money. Remember the infamous "Straight cash homie" line? He wants the money upfront.

David patten was a deep threat but was still very good and running routes. Wouldnt be the quickest at it (especially in the end) but he did it none the less.

Bethel Johnson was just miserable you can tell though they were trying to adapt that speed to our scheme and it was just a failure. He even failed in New Orleans and Minnesota.

Chad Jackson is definitely the type of player i described. Not only is he fast and has great hands but he was great in college coming from essentially the same system. The reason the Pariots have Caldwell/Gaffney/Jackson/ and Kight is because they come from an almost identical system so its easier to translate how they will do in the NFL.

Walker was a number 1 WR no matter where he went, with the exception of a few teams, he didnt have to be great at anything he was just a great WR that made plays regardless of where the ball was thrown to him.

 

[Digger44]

Just knowing Moss as a player i bet he says NO to an incentive laden deal. He's all about guaranteed money. Remember the infamous "Straight cash homie" line? He wants the money upfront.

Who honestly knows except Moss? Maybe he wants ring?

David patten was a deep threat but was still very good and running routes. Wouldnt be the quickest at it (especially in the end) but he did it none the less.

Once again, there is no proof that Moss cannot run nice routes. If is your opinion that he can, then that is one thing. Seeing him under a good system with high discipline could be another.

Bethel Johnson was just miserable you can tell though they were trying to adapt that speed to our scheme and it was just a failure. He even failed in New Orleans and Minnesota.

I agree 100%, but BB knew the type of player he was. It is Bethel's fault for not being disciplined and having an attitude problem.

Chad Jackson is definitely the type of player i described. Not only is he fast and has great hands but he was great in college coming from essentially the same system. The reason the Pariots have Caldwell/Gaffney/Jackson/ and Kight is because they come from an almost identical system so its easier to translate how they will do in the NFL.

You have to admit that CJ is a very different player then we usually draft or sign. I don't buy 100% your idea of why they are here. If that were the case and it were identical, why did it take until the end of the season to pick out system up? It was pretty ugly there for a while and Tommy was frustrated that nobody could pick up the timing routes.

Walker was a number 1 WR no matter where he went, with the exception of a few teams, he didnt have to be great at anything he was just a great WR that made plays regardless of where the ball was thrown to him.

Yes, now you are making my point. A commited, disciplined Randy Moss could do the same. The problem is we don't know if he is capable of being commited & disciplined.

I just can't overlook the guys pure ability. I don't want the attitude, issues, laziness, or big contract. If these can be put aside, which is possible, Moss could have a few more solid years in the NFL.

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

It doesnt seem like his skills and abilities would flourish here in NE.. Plus, he complains now that he doesnt get the ball enough-and places where he has complained dont compare at all to the way bradys spreads the ball... The Long Ball is an effective weapon (especially with a receiver like moss who make running fast look so effortless, and arms as long as his and hops as high as his) without a doubt, but I dont believe we've had a serious threat like moss on our team..

My final vote..keep the draft pick(s)...get wes welker heh.

 

[RayClay]

(I am 100% serious in this thread fyi)
Leave the Behavior commnents out of this thread, because he hasn't ever played on the pats, he hates where he is now and we don't know whether he'd be like Dillon or not so save it.

I was reading this nfl.com article about the Raiders possibly trading Moss http://nfl.com/news/story/9988414
(it says nothing about the pats)

I was wondering if it's a possilbity.. It would cost less than a first obviously, and if we could re-structure his contract (i think we could do that ) it's an option.

What would it cost?? a 2nd rounder?? maybe less?

I would like him here if he wasn't a problem.
We would no longer have to worry about receivers on this team for a while. Every single receiver would instantly improve if the pats got this guy.

He wouldn't be like Dillon because he never was.

 

[Rob0729]

It doesnt seem like his skills and abilities would flourish here in NE.. Plus, he complains now that he doesnt get the ball enough-and places where he has complained dont compare at all to the way bradys spreads the ball... The Long Ball is an effective weapon (especially with a receiver like moss who make running fast look so effortless, and arms as long as his and hops as high as his) without a doubt, but I dont believe we've had a serious threat like moss on our team..

My final vote..keep the draft pick(s)...get wes welker heh.

I'd like to get Welker too, but I am guessing we will need to give up a first rounder to get him. I expect the Dolphins to give him at least the second tier RFA tender which requires first round compensation. I'd rather have Kevin Curtis with no compensation.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Ok
No one has done this yet so......:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

Moss does not run tight routes. He does not sacrifice himself over the middle.
All he does is go deep and outjump defenders. Pass......