Andy Reid: Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

[Xzibit23]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

As a San Diego fan I watched him BOTH years in Oakland. He was a cancer. As for your contention that everyone loved him I don't agree and there's no way to prove it. I remember Chris Carter, his personal chaperone Randy's first year, saying he was a problem. Whatever. All you need to do to see my side of it is to look at what the Patriots got him for, what? A fourth round pick. If he wasn't what I say how do you explain it with his stats (that you say make him the best ever after his first 6 years)? Why didn't Minnesota take him back for a fourth or third or second when they had traded him for a number one just two years earlier? But whatever. We disagree. It's been a great discussion.

pao

We aren t talking about Oakland, we've made that very clear. If you're using what you saw from him in Oakland as an accurate representation of what he did in Minnesota, thats your first mistake. Your second mistake is making broad inaccurate statements like Chris Carter saying Moss was a problem when in fact he never said that and was a big defender of Moss. Trust me, there isnt a player I followed more closely than Moss in Minnesota, I was living there at the time. If you want to me to go into detail, I can. Now if you want to comment on his Oakland tenure, fine..but if you want to somehow claim his time in Minnesota was cancerous, then make sure you have actual examples to back it up because the numbers are already against you.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

We aren t talking about Oakland, we've made that very clear. If you're using what you saw from him in Oakland as an accurate representation of what he did in Minnesota, thats your first mistake. Your second mistake is making broad inaccurate statements like Chris Carter saying Moss was a problem when in fact he never said that and was a big defender of Moss. Trust me, there isnt a player I followed more closely than Moss in Minnesota, I was living there at the time. If you want to me to go into detail, I can. Now if you want to comment on his Oakland tenure, fine..but if you want to somehow claim his time in Minnesota was cancerous, then make sure you have actual examples to back it up because the numbers are already against you.

I don't particularly have any horse in this race... though I do strongly defend Pao's right to have an opinion that isn't deemed "wrong" since its his opinion...

But if this one ESPN article is any indication, while Moss put up good numbers there's certainly some comments that were made at the time that do NOT indicate that either the organization or the players were necessarily sorry to see Moss go.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1998159

The flamboyant Moss had been the subject of trade rumors following this past season. He struggled with a hamstring injury but still finished with 13 touchdown catches. He was fined $10,000 for pretending to pull down his pants and moon the Green Bay crowd during Minnesota's playoff win. He also drew criticism for leaving the field with two seconds left in a regular-season loss against Washington.

Team leaders Matt Birk and Daunte Culpepper confronted Moss after he walked off at Washington, and the organization's patience with the receiver seemed to dwindle in the past year or so.

"He's my good friend, but you almost get to thinking that maybe enough is enough," Culpepper said earlier this month at the Pro Bowl. "And maybe the Vikings organization has had enough."

So I'm not quite clear why you're so up in arms with Pao's interpretation of Moss's tenure or whether he deems Moss's time in Oakland and Minnesota to be a success.

I think part of the beauty of the contract the Patriots negotiated with Moss - regardless of whether any teams other than the Eagles had serious interest in him or not - is that the 3 year deal is a win win... at only 3 years it protects the Patriots and also serves to keep Moss highly motivated, as he could well earn ANOTHER big contract by the time this one ends (possibly in an uncapped year) and it fairly compensates Moss assuming his production remains consistent.

Personally I don't think the nature of this current contract came about by coincidence and that the Patriots did keep in mind Moss' tenure in Oakland and Minnesota, but I know MY opinion on that isn't welcome, or anywhere near defensible in anyone's mind around here - yet at the end of the day, the contract protects the Patriots and whether by coincidence or not, avoids creating the environment for that to happen here (even aside from the positive impact of playing for Brady and Belichick brings).

Here's another report from the time

http://football.about.com/b/2005/02/23/randy-moss-traded-to-raiders.htm

After weeks of speculation, the Minnesota Vikings have agreed to trade enigmatic wide receiver Randy Moss to the Oakland Raiders, a franchise that has been the eventual destination of many NFL malcontents and misfits over the years.

So I do think that people should give Pao a break as its not like there's no grain of truth in what he's saying.

 

[Xzibit23]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

I don't particularly have any horse in this race... though I do strongly defend Pao's right to have an opinion that isn't deemed "wrong" since its his opinion...

But if this one ESPN article is any indication, while Moss put up good numbers there's certainly some comments that were made at the time that do NOT indicate that either the organization or the players were necessarily sorry to see Moss go.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1998159



So I'm not quite clear why you're so up in arms with Pao's interpretation of Moss's tenure or whether he deems Moss's time in Oakland and Minnesota to be a success.

Funny, on that same link above I found a link to this article below explaining how Viking fans were upset about the deal:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1998375

Football fans here reacted with anger and bewilderment on Wednesday to news that the Vikings have agreed to trade Moss to the Oakland Raiders for linebacker Napoleon Harris, the seventh pick in the NFL draft and a late-round pick in the draft.

"I think it was a big mistake for us, trading him," VanderPlas, 22, said while eating dinner at Hubert's, a Minneapolis sports bar adjacent to the Metrodome. "The reason they're on Monday Night Football, the reason they're on (ESPN) Sunday Night Football is because we had Moss. Not because we had (Daunte) Culpepper, not because of our defense, obviously. It's because we had Moss.

Thanks for this, hopefully when Pao reads this thread he'll use the time to do some research. As for the Culpepper quote, that was one quote from a player doing some PR work on behalf of his team. And, once again, even in that quote he talks about his affection for Moss, not really incriminating. I dont get it, if the guy is such a bad cancer like Pao claims, should it be that hard to list his cancerous actions?? Cmon, he's soooooo bad afterall.

 

[pao]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

We aren t talking about Oakland, we've made that very clear.

I guess your definition of "very clear" and mine are different. Your quote...
"I will give you the 2 years in Oakland, even though you can debate that he only became a problem in his 2nd year."
You opened it up for debate and I responded with this...
"As a San Diego fan I watched him BOTH years in Oakland. He was a cancer."
How's that for clarity. Just shows that your credibility is limited. This is at least the second time you have obviously misunderstood or deliberately mischaracterised something I have said.

If you're using what you saw from him in Oakland as an accurate representation of what he did in Minnesota, thats your first mistake.

I never said I was using his time in Oakland as a rep of his time in Minnesota. I said that his history before coming to NE was of being cancerous to a team.

Your second mistake is making broad inaccurate statements like Chris Carter saying Moss was a problem when in fact he never said that and was a big defender of Moss.

He said it. I'll try to find it.

Trust me, there isnt a player I followed more closely than Moss in Minnesota, I was living there at the time. If you want to me to go into detail, I can.

Then you know, despite your protestations, that Randy was considered, at the very least, a problem for the team's image. AT THE VERY LEAST. And in fact players from that team admitted that they were fed up with his antics. Why do you think they traded "the best" wide receiver over his first 6 years. And don't say it was ONLY because of the guy trying to sell the team. That isn't the whole story.

Now if you want to comment on his Oakland tenure, fine..but if you want to somehow claim his time in Minnesota was cancerous, then make sure you have actual examples to back it up because the numbers are already against you.

There are already enough examples posted on this thread, you even listed them yourself. But, really, this Minnesota fixation is too narrow anyway. You MUST include Oakland when talking about the subject of this thread, which is that Randy was going to sign with NE all along. I was saying that Randy would not sign somewhere else because he knows he won't be as successful somewhere else, IMO. Based on his history, I believe it too.

pao

 

[pao]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

I don't particularly have any horse in this race... though I do strongly defend Pao's right to have an opinion that isn't deemed "wrong" since its his opinion...

But if this one ESPN article is any indication, while Moss put up good numbers there's certainly some comments that were made at the time that do NOT indicate that either the organization or the players were necessarily sorry to see Moss go.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1998159



So I'm not quite clear why you're so up in arms with Pao's interpretation of Moss's tenure or whether he deems Moss's time in Oakland and Minnesota to be a success.

I think part of the beauty of the contract the Patriots negotiated with Moss - regardless of whether any teams other than the Eagles had serious interest in him or not - is that the 3 year deal is a win win... at only 3 years it protects the Patriots and also serves to keep Moss highly motivated, as he could well earn ANOTHER big contract by the time this one ends (possibly in an uncapped year) and it fairly compensates Moss assuming his production remains consistent.

Personally I don't think the nature of this current contract came about by coincidence and that the Patriots did keep in mind Moss' tenure in Oakland and Minnesota, but I know MY opinion on that isn't welcome, or anywhere near defensible in anyone's mind around here - yet at the end of the day, the contract protects the Patriots and whether by coincidence or not, avoids creating the environment for that to happen here (even aside from the positive impact of playing for Brady and Belichick brings).

Here's another report from the time

http://football.about.com/b/2005/02/23/randy-moss-traded-to-raiders.htm




So I do think that people should give Pao a break as its not like there's no grain of truth in what he's saying.

Excellent post!

pao

 

[Xzibit23]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

But, really, this Minnesota fixation is too narrow anyway. You MUST include Oakland when talking about the subject of this thread, which is that Randy was going to sign with NE all along.

I agree its fair to include Oakland, but realize 2 things: a)He was in Minnesota for 7 years and Oakland for just 2 and b)Oakland isnt just some average NFL team, its arguably the worst team to play for. Knowing those 2 facts, is it a stretch to argue how he performed in Minnesota is a better representation of Moss on an average team than his performance in Oakland?? I would think so. You're putting all your eggs in the Oakland basket when it comes to judging Moss, and thats not fair at all.

I was saying that Randy would not sign somewhere else because he knows he won't be as successful somewhere else, IMO. Based on his history, I believe it too.

pao

You said he wont be successful, period...which is really what started this debate. Saying he wont be AS successful outside of NE is probably a correct statement, except for maybe if he went to Indy and maybe Jacksonville.

 

[LoganMankinsPancakeBlocks]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

You said he wont be successful, period...which is really what started this debate. Saying he wont be AS successful outside of NE is probably a correct statement, except for maybe if he went to Indy and maybe Jacksonville.

Exactly (though there's no chance he's as successful with Garrard as he is w/Brady). There's a MASSIVE difference between "it's the only place he'd be successful" vs. "he won't be as successful". Of course he won't be as successful when he's not playing with the best QB in the NFL and if you had said that, no one would have a problem with what you said, Pao.

To say he could not succeed anywhere else, is quite simply, absurd. He proved he could be the best WR in football in Minnesota for 7 years and had HOF production there.

You based your comment on "he could not succeed anywhere else" based on a 2 year stint (1 year which he was a 1,000 yard receiver and damn good WR, even if not the superstar he was in Minny and NE) with the worst organization in the NFL, with what was the worst offensive line in the NFL and quite possibly the worst QB play in the NFL. That's a pretty unfair situation to judge a guy in and it certainly does not prove he'd fail everywhere but NE, especially considering he was playing at a HOF caliber pace in Minnesota.

 

[pao]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

I agree its fair to include Oakland, but realize 2 things: a)He was in Minnesota for 7 years and Oakland for just 2 and b)Oakland isnt just some average NFL team, its arguably the worst team to play for. Knowing those 2 facts, is it a stretch to argue how he performed in Minnesota is a better representation of Moss on an average team than his performance in Oakland?? I would think so. You're putting all your eggs in the Oakland basket when it comes to judging Moss, and thats not fair at all.

I'm going to find some stuff that shows he was AT LEAST a pain in the butt in Minnesota. You're right it WOULDN'T be fair if I just included Oakland.

You said he wont be successful, period...which is really what started this debate. Saying he wont be AS successful outside of NE is probably a correct statement, except for maybe if he went to Indy and maybe Jacksonville.

Ok, I'll agree with that. One should never speak in absolutes I guess. Hmmm, this will be better.... I don't THINK he would be AS successful as he will be with NE, not even close, with any other team in the NFL. I think his production AND attitude requires a NE type culture created by the likes of BB and TB to reach his full potential. There are very few, if any, organisations with NE type culture AND a QB that Moss respects. I think that Moss knew, or at least felt, this and had no intention of signing anywhere else. Thanks for the conversation.

pao

 

[goz421]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

Randy Moss almost single handly took the Vikings to the Superbowl. This isn't an understatement. The guy made several below average QB's pro-bowl superstars. And like it or not, he took Tom Brady from a great QB to consideration as one of the all time best.

I know this might upset the fanboys on this board, but to outsiders Tom was considered a great "system" QB that relied on the dink-and-dunk. He couldn't throw the long ball, and couldn't throw under pressure. That changed with Moss. The guy was able to throw the long ball into double/triple coverage because he knew Moss would usually come down with it. I can't tell you how many "bad" passes that I saw Brady throw into coverage only to have Moss make a spectacular catch.

That's what Moss brings. Brady more than anyone knows this. The fact is, Moss wasn't getting anywhere close to "fair market value" from the Pats. They were low balling him, and he opened himself up to other teams to get a fair deal. He STILL gave the Pats a hometown discount, and yet you still b*tch.


:shrug

This is a stupid statement by someone who probably has never watched Brady on a consistent basis. Brady has always thrown the long ball when needed. I seem to remember him putting it to all the others quarterbacks in a skills contest with the long ball. Brady has won three superbowls without Moss. The Pats were real good in that system before Brady came along. In New England we know how good Brady is. What happens when you put two players who are the best at their position together. You get the most prolific offense in history.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

Funny, on that same link above I found a link to this article below explaining how Viking fans were upset about the deal.

I would think they were - regardless of what antics Moss was involved in, how much of a distraction he was, whether Culpepper and the front office were frustrated with him walking off the field, mooning fans what have you - Moss is INCREDIBLY talented as we all know.

We're a much better team today with him than we would be had he signed with the Eagles or any one of the "numerous" teams in the NFL his agent said they were talking to.

But no one needs to stick their head in the sand about his experiences in Oakland and Minnesota either and act like there were no issues, as confirmed by numerous articles at the time of the trade. The angry reaction to Pao's statements that there were issues suggests that many folks have short memories.

By design or coincidence Belichick did a fantastic job giving Moss a very strong incentive to maintain his performance and good behavior. A debate over whether it IS by design or coincidence seems to get quite testy, but as for Pao's point, he's not just fabricating incidences that took place in Minnesota.

 

[lorijean]

I think Randy has just grown up. He is 31 and has four children(the oldest being 13). Has he done stupid things? Of course he has. I have also done many stupid things...especially when younger. I shudder to think what would have happened to me had I lived under a microscope.....lol.

 

[pao]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

Exactly (though there's no chance he's as successful with Garrard as he is w/Brady).

Which was my point, and Randy knows it.

There's a MASSIVE difference between "it's the only place he'd be successful" vs. "he won't be as successful". Of course he won't be as successful when he's not playing with the best QB in the NFL and if you had said that, no one would have a problem with what you said, Pao.

Good point, I should not have used an absolute. I also think that MOST places, without the influence of BB and TB types, he would be more disappointed with losses which leads to poor behviour by Randy.

To say he could not succeed anywhere else, is quite simply, absurd.

I'm not sure about absurd but, again, it was a mistake to use an absolute. But then we wouldn't have had this great conversation!

He proved he could be the best WR in football in Minnesota for 7 years and had HOF production there.

I don't agree that he was the best WR in football during his time in Minnesota. He may have had the best stats, but IMO ONLY, but he wasn't the best WR.

You based your comment on "he could not succeed anywhere else" based on a 2 year stint (1 year which he was a 1,000 yard receiver and damn good WR, even if not the superstar he was in Minny and NE)...

No, I based it on the fact that he had big problems in Minnesota AND in Oakland. Again don't be fooled by the stats. There's more to be being good than stats. Hell, that is practically the Patriots's mantra.

...with the worst organization in the NFL, with what was the worst offensive line in the NFL and quite possibly the worst QB play in the NFL. That's a pretty unfair situation to judge a guy in and it certainly does not prove he'd fail everywhere but NE, especially considering he was playing at a HOF caliber pace in Minnesota.

Well it actually proves my point that there were a limited number of teams (not an absolute now, simply qualified)that he could sign with and not have problems or be as successful as he has been, and will be, with the Patriots. Remember, that was my original point. Yes, it was a mistake to say the Patriots are the ONLY team he could be a success with, but the teams he could be a success with IS limited. Hey, I appreciate all of the comments by those that participated. It has been a great conversation. You guys got me to qualify my original statement through thoughtful, reasoned posts. Thanks again. Joe, X, Logan, great job.

pao

 

[pao]

Re: Andy Reid:Randy was always going to go back to the Patriots

I would think they were - regardless of what antics Moss was involved in, how much of a distraction he was, whether Culpepper and the front office were frustrated with him walking off the field, mooning fans what have you - Moss is INCREDIBLY talented as we all know.

We're a much better team today with him than we would be had he signed with the Eagles or any one of the "numerous" teams in the NFL his agent said they were talking to.

But no one needs to stick their head in the sand about his experiences in Oakland and Minnesota either and act like there were no issues, as confirmed by numerous articles at the time of the trade. The angry reaction to Pao's statements that there were issues suggests that many folks have short memories.

By design or coincidence Belichick did a fantastic job giving Moss a very strong incentive to maintain his performance and good behavior. A debate over whether it IS by design or coincidence seems to get quite testy, but as for Pao's point, he's not just fabricating incidences that took place in Minnesota.

Exactly. You hit it right on the head. I must say Moss AND the Patriots are better for his signing....much to my chagrin (being a Charger fan and all)!!! Good luck this offseason.

pao

 

[AndrewA]

According to 950AM in Philly, Ron Jaworski, who was on Live, says that Randy Moss has yet to sign with New England, as Bill Belichick is not giving him the Money he promised, said the deal probably won't but COULD fall through

 

[lorijean]

"According to 950AM in Philly, Ron Jaworski, who was on Live, says that Randy Moss has yet to sign with New England, as Bill Belichick is not giving him the Money he promised, said the deal probably won't but COULD fall through"

PFT is reporting untrue. They said Jaworski said it but that contract is signed and on file with NFL