Analyzing the O-Line's problems

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've now watched most of the first half - NFL Network cut out the Titans first goal line stand and two minutes of the game, there are 4 minutes left in the half when I go back to the recording - WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason. O'Callaghan rotating in for Kaczur has had 2 1/2 breakdowns. Light was beaten once. Mankins was beaten once and had a phantom penalty called on him, Neal has 1 1/2 errors. Koppen and Kaczur haven't been burned yet. I can only point to one play where extra protection was kept in the pocket. When the O-line has been beaten, they've never given Tommy less then a 3 count to get off a pass - that's pretty much standard in the NFL. The zone blocking has been pretty effective, if anything the RBs aren't hitting the holes or picking the right hole. The worst blocker on the field has been Ben Watson, Evans has looked good as a blocker, as have Rivers and Brian Jones. The biggest reason Tommy has gotten hit as hard and as often as he has is Donte Stallworth - Tommy is trying to go deep and is holding the ball and ignoring his dump-off receivers for the chance at a long ball (or to make Donte happy). On both interceptions Tommy has been throwing to Stallworth and gotten hit as he released.

And all this while Scarnecchia and McDaniels are experimenting in the field. Good grief folks, spend the money for a good DVR, maybe it will help.

 

[DaBruinz]

I've now watched most of the first half - NFL Network cut out the Titans first goal line stand and two minutes of the game, there are 4 minutes left in the half when I go back to the recording - WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason. O'Callaghan rotating in for Kaczur has had 2 1/2 breakdowns. Light was beaten once. Mankins was beaten once and had a phantom penalty called on him, Neal has 1 1/2 errors. Koppen and Kaczur haven't been burned yet. I can only point to one play where extra protection was kept in the pocket. When the O-line has been beaten, they've never given Tommy less then a 3 count to get off a pass - that's pretty much standard in the NFL. The zone blocking has been pretty effective, if anything the RBs aren't hitting the holes or picking the right hole. The worst blocker on the field has been Ben Watson, Evans has looked good as a blocker, as have Rivers and Brian Jones. The biggest reason Tommy has gotten hit as hard and as often as he has is Donte Stallworth - Tommy is trying to go deep and is holding the ball and ignoring his dump-off receivers for the chance at a long ball (or to make Donte happy). On both interceptions Tommy has been throwing to Stallworth and gotten hit as he released.

And all this while Scarnecchia and McDaniels are experimenting in the field. Good grief folks, spend the money for a good DVR, maybe it will help.

Box -
Thanks for the breakdown... Glad that I wasn't seeing things.

 

[PATSNUTme]

It would benefit anyone who has questions about zone blocking to read the excellent thread by AllWorldTE that Box had posted (post #42).

I guess the answer to the question about zone blocking effecting the passing game is NO!. And, yes!

 

[363839]

I've now watched most of the first half - NFL Network cut out the Titans first goal line stand and two minutes of the game, there are 4 minutes left in the half when I go back to the recording - WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason. O'Callaghan rotating in for Kaczur has had 2 1/2 breakdowns. Light was beaten once. Mankins was beaten once and had a phantom penalty called on him, Neal has 1 1/2 errors. Koppen and Kaczur haven't been burned yet. I can only point to one play where extra protection was kept in the pocket. When the O-line has been beaten, they've never given Tommy less then a 3 count to get off a pass - that's pretty much standard in the NFL. The zone blocking has been pretty effective, if anything the RBs aren't hitting the holes or picking the right hole. The worst blocker on the field has been Ben Watson, Evans has looked good as a blocker, as have Rivers and Brian Jones. The biggest reason Tommy has gotten hit as hard and as often as he has is Donte Stallworth - Tommy is trying to go deep and is holding the ball and ignoring his dump-off receivers for the chance at a long ball (or to make Donte happy). On both interceptions Tommy has been throwing to Stallworth and gotten hit as he released.

And all this while Scarnecchia and McDaniels are experimenting in the field. Good grief folks, spend the money for a good DVR, maybe it will help.

I am feeling much better about the OL situation now.
So let's see what they can do against Carolina.
Last I checked they had a pretty good D, too.

 

[363839]

But Watson still concerns me.
The good news is Kyle Brady is still
to play on the field and hopefully
that will be sooner rather than later.

 

[PromisedLand]

It would benefit anyone who has questions about zone blocking to read the excellent thread by AllWorldTE that Box had posted (post #42).

I guess the answer to the question about zone blocking effecting the passing game is NO!. And, yes!

I read the first two posts by AllWorldTE in that thread and found no references to pass blocking. I didn't read the whole thread ---

So far as I read it confirmed my assumption that zone blocking is for running plays... did anyone who read farther find anything about zone blocking on passing plays?

 

[cstjohn17]

WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason.

I trust your judgements and appreciate the breakdown but 'rock solid'? was the Titanic just taking in a little water?

The Oline is there to protect the QB, in our case the QB is the franchise. On the first hit the Titans ran a very simple stunt and the end was lost coming right up the middle. On one of the other ones there was a phantom block and Odom was sprung free. Any of the 3-4 big hits on Brady could have been devastating. It is pre-season, better to take a holding penalty than let Brady get buried.

We should see a better effort against Carolina (and we will need it they have a better defensive line).

 

[DaBruinz]

I trust your judgements and appreciate the breakdown but 'rock solid'? was the Titanic just taking in a little water?

The Oline is there to protect the QB, in our case the QB is the franchise. On the first hit the Titans ran a very simple stunt and the end was lost coming right up the middle. On one of the other ones there was a phantom block and Odom was sprung free. Any of the 3-4 big hits on Brady could have been devastating. It is pre-season, better to take a holding penalty than let Brady get buried.

We should see a better effort against Carolina (and we will need it they have a better defensive line).

CST -
On the 1st hit, on the stunt, Box said that Mankins wasn't able to shift over because the RDT had his shoulder pads and was holding HIM.

Brady was in for quite a few plays. Yes, he got hit, but some of them should have been late hit calls that weren't called.

Odom also ran a stunt and Neal couldn't get over there, as Box said. But, OVERALL, the O-line was SOLID. Not spectacular. Not Excellent. Solid.

 

[PatsSteve1]

IMO, they just need more practice/playing time to get more in sync against stunts, blitzes and with the zone run blocking scheme. They really haven't had much full pad practice time and the 1st unit not even 1 full preseason game togther. They've been together a couple of years now but they don't just pick up where they left off the previous year. Practice, practice, practice. And PS game experience.

 

[psychoPat]

.... WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason. O'Callaghan rotating in for Kaczur has had 2 1/2 breakdowns. Light was beaten once. Mankins was beaten once and had a phantom penalty called on him, Neal has 1 1/2 errors. Koppen and Kaczur haven't been burned yet. I can only point to one play where extra protection was kept in the pocket. When the O-line has been beaten, they've never given Tommy less then a 3 count to get off a pass - that's pretty much standard in the NFL. The zone blocking has been pretty effective, if anything the RBs aren't hitting the holes or picking the right hole. The worst blocker on the field has been Ben Watson, Evans has looked good as a blocker, as have Rivers and Brian Jones. The biggest reason Tommy has gotten hit as hard and as often as he has is Donte Stallworth - Tommy is trying to go deep and is holding the ball and ignoring his dump-off receivers for the chance at a long ball (or to make Donte happy). On both interceptions Tommy has been throwing to Stallworth and gotten hit as he released.

....
Good grief folks, spend the money for a good DVR, maybe it will help.

No, sir!
Like all on the board, i doff my cap to your acuity, judgment, and insights.

Let's say the runners are missing holes that are there.
But pass blocking is to be judged empirically. Scale the individual blockers all you like.
If 3 QBs are on the run all the time ... and getting nailed a lot ... those results are all that counts!

Why is it Stallworth's fault that the QB wants to get him the ball?
Why is it the QB's fault that he has courage ... and wants to make a play?

I'm just going to go on imagining
that it is the collective job of the OL
to give their quarterbacks time
to throw more than dump-offs.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I read the first two posts by AllWorldTE in that thread and found no references to pass blocking. I didn't read the whole thread ---

So far as I read it confirmed my assumption that zone blocking is for running plays... did anyone who read farther find anything about zone blocking on passing plays?

His last post in thread talks about that.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

His last post in thread talks about that.

Cripes man, I don't feel like clicking links and counting posts ... do a brotha a favor and sum it up. Is the line learning a new scheme in pass protection as well, or does the zone blocking changes affect run blocking only?
I still haven't seen a game yet, it's killin' me. :bricks:

 

[SVN]

I've now watched most of the first half - NFL Network cut out the Titans first goal line stand and two minutes of the game, there are 4 minutes left in the half when I go back to the recording - WHAT IN THE DEVIL ARE YOU WET PANTY WHINERS COMPLAINING ABOUT???????

The O-line has been rock solid, especially for preseason. O'Callaghan rotating in for Kaczur has had 2 1/2 breakdowns. Light was beaten once. Mankins was beaten once and had a phantom penalty called on him, Neal has 1 1/2 errors. Koppen and Kaczur haven't been burned yet. I can only point to one play where extra protection was kept in the pocket. When the O-line has been beaten, they've never given Tommy less then a 3 count to get off a pass - that's pretty much standard in the NFL. The zone blocking has been pretty effective, if anything the RBs aren't hitting the holes or picking the right hole. The worst blocker on the field has been Ben Watson, Evans has looked good as a blocker, as have Rivers and Brian Jones. The biggest reason Tommy has gotten hit as hard and as often as he has is Donte Stallworth - Tommy is trying to go deep and is holding the ball and ignoring his dump-off receivers for the chance at a long ball (or to make Donte happy). On both interceptions Tommy has been throwing to Stallworth and gotten hit as he released.

And all this while Scarnecchia and McDaniels are experimenting in the field. Good grief folks, spend the money for a good DVR, maybe it will help.

this is one thing iam worried about with all the new high profile wideouts-tom trying to look for the big play instead of his staple "throw to the open guy" method. Iam hope BB and co will correct it out if it resurfaces.

 

[RoadGrader]

I think that we may need a bit of patience regarding the analysis of the Offense, especially the O-line until we see performance over the next 2 pre-season games at the very least

even in the face of us seeing D-linemen in the face of The Franchise, I submit that observing some of the hits recently on TB can be a result of partly O-line, partly route-running and finally partly TB himself

I also submit that we are ALL waiting, nay dying, to see an offense that is not Offensive --- and are chomping at the bit to see a semblance of domination (that we may believe is lying in wait by way of the off-season, offensive player acquisitions) not witnessed in previous Patriots teams --- even in the SB winning years

we get a Kyle Brady on the field with a Maroney, a Moss, a Stallworth and a Welker and we see what we really may have or no, yes?

 

[PATSNUTme]

Cripes man, I don't feel like clicking links and counting posts ... do a brotha a favor and sum it up. Is the line learning a new scheme in pass protection as well, or does the zone blocking changes affect run blocking only?
I still haven't seen a game yet, it's killin' me. :bricks:

It's hard to sum up. Zone blocking is primarily used in the running game. However some elements are used in the passing game as well. But, the term "zone blocking" is for the running game.

Think of it as a Certs. Is it more of a breath mint or a candy mint?

 

[PATSNUTme]

I think that we may need a bit of patience regarding the analysis of the Offense, especially the O-line until we see performance over the next 2 pre-season games at the very least

even in the face of us seeing D-linemen in the face of The Franchise, I submit that observing some of the hits recently on TB can be a result of partly O-line, partly route-running and finally partly TB himself

I also submit that we are ALL waiting, nay dying, to see an offense that is not Offensive --- and are chomping at the bit to see a semblance of domination (that we may believe is lying in wait by way of the off-season, offensive player acquisitions) not witnessed in previous Patriots teams --- even in the SB winning years

we get a Kyle Brady on the field with a Maroney, a Moss, a Stallworth and a Welker and we see what we really may have or no, yes?

You are right. It's unfair for people to get emotional and say that Light sucks or Mankins sucks, without looking at the tape.

Plus in pre-season the offense is vanilla,really no game planning. But, some of defensive calls are more vanilla swirl.

 

[cstjohn17]

CST -
On the 1st hit, on the stunt, Box said that Mankins wasn't able to shift over because the RDT had his shoulder pads and was holding HIM.

Brady was in for quite a few plays. Yes, he got hit, but some of them should have been late hit calls that weren't called.

Odom also ran a stunt and Neal couldn't get over there, as Box said. But, OVERALL, the O-line was SOLID. Not spectacular. Not Excellent. Solid.

Sorry for the late respone, putting a 2 1/2 year to bed can be like wrestling a demon (more water, I have to go to the bathroom, please read to me, why daddy? why daddy?, etc.).

The rating suppleid by BOX was Rock Solid, which sounds like a pretty darn good grade. There may have been more at work than just the OLine play TE blocking, RB blocking, play calling, QB awareness and/or execution but... allowing your QB to get absolutely drilled 3 times in one half is not acceptable. By pro standards once per game is extreme. While improved lets remember that the Titans only had 25 sacks in 06 (4th worst in the NFL).

On a rating scale of awful, poor, solid, rock solid, top notch I would rate it as poor. Again I expect an improvement and don't see the O line as a weak link but the performance was far less than ideal. I also don't think simply adding Maroney and Moss is going to automatically solve the issues. Brady is alive, time to fix the issue and move on.

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29472/NE_Gamebook.pdf

Without access to the tape, here is what I remember, the offense looked shaky and was aided by good field position, Titan penalties and turnovers. On 3 drives inside the 5 only one resulted in a TD.

1st drive -New England Patriots at 13:38 start at NE 19 - bad drive
- 3rd down, simple stunt run DE is lost by interior guard, Brady makes a bad throw under pressure, picked off for TD

2nd drive -New England Patriots at 12:10 - start at NE 42 - good drive
- nice drive, TD to Welker was a result of good protection and Brady's ability to slide out of the pocket to gain more time, nice pass to Welker but it seemed like more of a broken play

3rd drive - New England Patriots at 9:52 start at TEN 23 - good drive, aided by penalty and excellent field position
- good run blocking until they got inside the 5, drive would have been over without a Titan penalty, nice smash mouth finish with a power run for a TD

4th drive - New England Patriots at 4:02 start at NE 20 - bad drive
- 1st play Brady sacked (initially ruled incomplete then reversed)

5th drive - New England Patriots at 0:13 start at NE 47 - bad drive
- after 2 first downs because of penalty
- we get down to the 1 on a pass interference call, I would say it was bogus but since we have been on the other side of countless questionable PI calls I say it is about damn time we got one to go our way
- this is where it gets really ugly
1-1-TEN 1 (13:24) S.Morris left guard to TEN 1 for no gain (A.Odom, K.Bulluck).
2-1-TEN 1 (12:54) S.Morris left tackle to TEN 1 for no gain (L.Woods).
PENALTY on NE-L.Mankins, Offensive Holding, 9 yards, enforced at TEN 1 - No Play.
2-10-TEN 10 (12:28) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to K.Washington.
3-10-TEN 10 (12:22) (Shotgun) T.Brady sacked at TEN 15 for -5 yards (A.Odom)
- then a missed field goal to boot

6th drive - New England Patriots at 9:43 start at NE23 - bad drive
- 3-4-NE 29 (9:17) (No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass intended for D.Stallworth INTERCEPTED by L.Thompson [A.Odom] at TEN 41. L.Thompson to TEN
41 for no gain
- honestly I don't remember this play

7th drive - how the heck did we get 7 drives in one half? - ok drive
New England Patriots at 7:30 start at NE43
- pretty good drive until the offensive PI by Caldwell

8th drive - Cassell now in but most 1st unit O line is left in - bad drive
New England Patriots at 3:22 start at NE18
- pretty bad drive with another protection breakdown
1-10-NE 18 (3:22) NE 16-Cassel now at QB. S.Morris up the middle to NE 17 for -1 yards (R.Long).
2-11-NE 17 (2:50) M.Cassel sacked at NE 8 for -9 yards (A.Odom).
3-20-NE 8 (2:20) (Shotgun) S.Morris up the middle to NE 13 for 5 yards (R.Fowler, T.LaBoy).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The rating suppleid by BOX was Rock Solid, which sounds like a pretty darn good grade. There may have been more at work than just the OLine play TE blocking, RB blocking, play calling, QB awareness and/or execution but... allowing your QB to get absolutely drilled 3 times in one half is not acceptable. By pro standards once per game is extreme. ... On a rating scale of awful, poor, solid, rock solid, top notch I would rate it as poor. Again I expect an improvement and don't see the O line as a weak link but the performance was far less than ideal.

Rock solid is a pretty darn good grade, when you factor in run game and passing game, game plan or lack thereof, who else was involved in blocking, QB decision making, ad nauseum, you have a lot to take into consideration:

- Game plan, or more accurately, lack thereof. Most of the game plan was preparing a trial and error program to explore what works, what doesn't, and what may work with tweeking. The blocking schemes weren't geared to Tennessee as much as they were geared to seeing who is capable of doing what in preseason.
- Run game: When the Pats wanted to, they ate Tennessee's lunch in a clock killing grind it out running game using Sammy Morris and Heath Evans. The results looked like 2004 Cory Dillon in the second half of a game.
- Passing game: When Tommy wasn't trying to force it down the field, he was moving the ball. When Tommy got his clock cleaned, he held the ball. The three most vicious hits he took were throwing an interception at Stallworth (4 mississippi), running out of the pocket trying to hit Reche (he ran at 4 mississippi and was well outside the pocket trying to get the ball upfield with a LB closing in), and throwing an interception at Stallworth (4 mississippi). Both of the interceptions came on breakdowns with the line, but even with the line breakdowns, Tommy wasn't hit until I'd made a 4 count from the snap - last season he normally had the ball away on a 5-step drop timing pattern in 2.5 miss. and a 7-step drop usually left his hand between 3-3.5 miss. If he's throwing on a 4 count he's getting into Bledsoe time keeping.
- Watson struggled, but more then that, the TEs and RBs rarely were kept in to block. I can't speak for Cassel or Gutierrez since I just finished watching Tommy's part of the show.

So "rock solid" was based on a six man O-line crew with a RT rotation, the starting RT (Kaczur) never had a breakdown that I saw.
- Light had 1 breakdown on the strip sack of Tommy (3 miss.), and another I've been called on but didn't choose to count because again Light kept VDB off Tommy for 4 miss., and at that he was in Tommy's face while being pushed past Tommy who had time to pump fake, slide to the left, step up and hit Welker in the end zone for a 21 yd TD.
- Mankins may or may not have had a breakdown on the VDB smackdown for the first INT. A better analyst then I am felt Koppen or the game plan had more to do with that play then Mankins. Mankins was also flagged for holding (I know there was a second but it must be in the two minutes NFL Network cut out of the broadcast), but on replay he can be seen pushing the DT down - such is life - and Tommy got creamed on that one because he scrambled out of the pocket and kept trying to hit Reche with a LB closing in.
- Koppen may have had a breakdown as noted above.
- Neal lost control of a DT on one play when Koppen released off the double-team to the next level, that was a run play that went for nothing. I had also given him a half on the Odom smackdown of Tommy, but the same guy who looked at the Mankins/VDB question said that was all O'Callaghan.
- With the update noted above, O'Callaghan had three clear breakdowns that I noted.
- On NFL.com's play-by-play I note 42 offensive plays with Tommy in the game, if you factor in game planning's affect on the blocking and play calling, Tommy's own decisions, the lack of auxiliary blockers, the three scoring drives (and two teasers where the coaches experimented), and the fact each O-lineman (with the exception of O'Callaghan) had roughly one partially mitigated major error apiece in preseason - and I'll split the difference with you on your scale = solid.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If 3 QBs are on the run all the time ... and getting nailed a lot ... those results are all that counts!

http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/bsflag.gif

I said the "reason" was Stallworth, I never said he was at fault.

There is no 3 QB stuff, I addressed the time "The Franchise" was in the game, the other guys have yet to be evaluated.

Now, tell me what standard you wish to apply: A veteran QB drops back in the pocket, holds the ball too long looking for a long ball opening and gets creamed by a D-linemen as he throws, resulting in an interception. Do we (A) scream at the O-line or (B) call him a statue and trade him to Buffalo? If it's "A" we'd better hope Cassel or Gutierrez is the next Tom Brady.

 

[PromisedLand]

Re: Analyzing the O-lines problems

you're blaming Matt Light for the first pressure? It was a stunt. There is no way that is Light's fault. I think Mankins should have shifted and taken the stunt and Light should have slid over on Mankins guy.

I know we have already discussed this question extensively, but I believe this Ryan O'Callaghan quote definitely settles the issue:

Stunts in focus. On quarterback Tom Brady’s two interceptions Friday night, rushers sprung free on stunts and pressured Brady. The second interception came as Antwan Odom stunted up the middle and crunched Brady. Right tackle Ryan O’Callaghan initially blocked Odom before passing him off to right guard Stephen Neal (who was blocking Tony Brown). But in reviewing the play, O’Callaghan said he didn’t execute properly, as he should have stayed with Odom. The reason is that he and Neal were playing on different levels (O’Callaghan was deeper in the pocket than Neal was), so it was his responsibility to stay with Odom.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2007/08/5_from_foxborou_1.html