Welcome to PatsFans.com

Analysis of "pipeline" picks?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by patchick, Sep 1, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    12,043
    Likes Received:
    591
    Ratings:
    +1,751 / 9 / -2

    #50 Jersey

    As we wave goodbye to Chad Jackson, has anyone else paused to speculate whether BB was swayed too much by his time with Urban Meyer in Florida? Remember all the reports of him hanging out with the Gators, soaking it all in? Then the Pats drafted two of those Gator players, which was seen at the time as a clear, direct offshoot of his visits there. And neither of those players panned out.

    Which got me thinking...Rohan Davey and Marquise Hill came from LSU with a push from good pal Saban. Hmm, maybe we could get by with a little less help from our friends. But then we wouldn't have Logan Mankins and...who?

    Would anybody like to pitch in on an analysis of the Patriots' "friends and family" picks? Do the "pipelines" we love to talk about here really help, or hurt?
     
  2. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    5,051
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +48 / 11 / -4

    #54 Jersey

    I don't have any that jump to mind but I hope he never speaks to Urban Meyer again...

    I am sure Meyer, Saban, Groh, Weiss, Hill and the guy at Iowa give a pretty fair description of players in their conferences.
     
  3. D-cleater

    D-cleater Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    881
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Good topic. Ellis came from Iowa State who's coach BB has a relationship with as well. You can connect the dots with the new T we just picked up from Notre Dame as well.

    Unfortunately, either Weiss didn't communicate the value of Greg Jennings enough or the scouts / BB got too googley eyed with Jackson.

    I'm guessing the Pats scouting dept, as well other NFL scouts, get as much information regarding players that coaches have coached against as those they have coached. There's probably a lot of good, objective information there. Note how while BB is tight with Meyer, he has drafted more U of M players than UF.
     
  4. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    6,311
    Likes Received:
    33
    Ratings:
    +78 / 2 / -0

    #75 Jersey

    Eric Alexander, Blue Gay
     
  5. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,907
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +80 / 5 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    I think coaches will always rely on pipeline's and connections with college coaches. I think Mankins was a great find and the BB-Pat Hill connection probably has a lot to do with it.

    I think the college coaching connection works both ways for pro coaches. It gives them insite into college players, both good and bad. Of course we never hear about the bad and only see some of the good.
     
  6. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,929
    Likes Received:
    201
    Ratings:
    +559 / 50 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    These "pipeline" picks also come in knowing the system. Look for the Pats to pick up some more ND offensive players, as soon as they (ND) no longer suck.

    I hated the Johnson pick when they made it, I wanted Fasano, or Jones-Drew (although that wasn't going to happen once they took Maroney, who I liked even more). Looking back we could have had either Fasano, Jones-Drew, or a guy named Hester (without trading up to the spot where they got Johnson).

    The LSU guys, Faulk, Green, Gay, have been excellent players. Look for BB to gravitate towards Saban's ALabama guys now. BB has two very trusted guys in very high profile jobs in college, so hopefully they can draft a little better than they have in the last couple of years.
     
  7. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,907
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +80 / 5 / -1

    #12 Jersey

    I could not figure out why BB didn't jump on TE Carlson of ND. I thought he fit our system well and he could block a little, ran decent routes and could catch fairly well. I always thought there was something else going on with Carlson we did not know about.

    One more thing on the Urban Meyer pipeline. Someone is going to over draft Tim Tebow and are they in for a huge surprise when they find out Tebow can't read a milk carton let alone an NFL defense. Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2008
  8. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,929
    Likes Received:
    201
    Ratings:
    +559 / 50 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    I've said all along that Tebow is a TE in the NFL.
    (Of course, this coming from a guy with a "Honk if you sacked Tebow" bumpersticker).

    Go DAWGS!!
     
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,925
    Likes Received:
    286
    Ratings:
    +779 / 17 / -23

    #24 Jersey

    I think you're thinking of Kirk Ferentz who is at Iowa, not Iowa State.

    Yeah, Florida hasn't been good to us. LSU has been so-so. College coaches do have an agenda to get their players drafted as high as possible. In general, though, it's reasonable to have more confidence in Weis and Saban players as Belichick has a much longer relationship with them and they have more scheme similarities than that thing they play at Florida which isn't much like the Patriots on offense or defense.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008
  10. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,176
    Likes Received:
    125
    Ratings:
    +376 / 68 / -50

    No Jersey Selected

    James Sanders, for what it's worth.
     
  11. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,176
    Likes Received:
    125
    Ratings:
    +376 / 68 / -50

    No Jersey Selected

    1) Amen to that.

    2) That would be Kirk Ferentz, HC of Iowa.
     
  12. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,176
    Likes Received:
    125
    Ratings:
    +376 / 68 / -50

    No Jersey Selected

    Why would Charlie know about Greg Jennings? Did ND play W. Michigan in '05?
     
  13. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,176
    Likes Received:
    125
    Ratings:
    +376 / 68 / -50

    No Jersey Selected

    1) What sux is that instead of delivering sweet crude, the ND pipeline has had only gunk (Stevenson, Richardson, LeVoir) ooze out its hole.

    2) If Dallas had offered you Fasano & Akin Ayodele for #94, would you have accepted?
     
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    24,835
    Likes Received:
    371
    Ratings:
    +946 / 66 / -54

    #50 Jersey

    Ok, in previous years, I had reviewed the Pats picks strictly in terms of Saban because that was the only name being mentioned as part of the "pipeline." I did some more research and have now included the likes of Urban Meyer, Pat Hill, Kirk Ferentz, and Charlie Weis to this list. However, I do not know when the relationships started with Hill, Ferentz, and Meyer so I limited it to the 2005 to current drafts when reviewing them. I'm willing to update the players that these coaches hae potentially provided insight on whom the Patriots actually drafted.

    In the past, I have felt that the "pipeline" theory was a myth and, well, it kind of is. However, when you look at it from a broader perspective of whether or not the pipeline coaches might be giving the Patriots information on players they play against, there is much more to it.

    Here are the picks that Saban either coached or coached against (Bold are players who have contributed to the Patriots) prior to his joining Miami:
    Jarvis Green, Rohan Davey, TJ Turner, Greg Robinson-Randall, Marquise Hill, Ben Watson, Guss Scott, David Givens, Matt Light, Cedric Cobbs, Brock Williams, Jabari Holloway, Tom Brady, and David Nugent.

    Since Saban returned to the college ranks, here are the picks he might have had insight on because he coached against them: Jerod Mayo - Tennessee and Jonathan Wilhite - Auburn.

    The Patriots have not drafted anyone that Saban has coached since he returned to the college ranks.

    Saban could have had a hand in on Eric Alexander and Randall Gay, UDFA, as well.

    For the purpose of this post and to keep it in line with other posts on the subject I've done, I am including players came directly from teams or who the coach's team played against. Players in RED mean that more than one coach in the pipeline have seen them play.

    Pat Hill - (Started in 1997 at Fresno State. Not sure when he and BB became friends, so I will only go back to the 2005 Draft)
    Logan Mankins and James Sanders - Fresno State, Clint Oldenburg - Colorado State,

    Charlie Weis (Started in 2005 at Notre Dame)
    Mike Richardson - Notre Dame , Shawn Crable- Michigan, Jerod Mayo - Tennessee, Matt Cassel - USC, Dan Stevenson - Notre Dame, Oscar Lua, USC, Matt Slater - UCLA,

    Kirk Ferentz - (Started at Iowa in 1998. Not sure when he and BB started their friendship, so I'll limit this to the last 3 drafts)
    Mike Elgin - Iowa, Ellis Hobbs - Iowa State, David Thomas- Texas, Shawn Crable - Michigan, Laurence Maroney - Minnesota,

    Urban Meyer - (Utah & Florida , Not sure when he and BB became friends)
    Chad Jackson - Florida, Jeremy Mincey - Florida, Mike Elgin - Iowa, Jerod Mayo - Tennessee, Jonathan Wilhite - Auburn, Shawn Crable - Michigan


    For D-Cleater, Weis' Notre Dame did not play against W. Michigan during the 2005/2006 season, so I am not sure how you can mention Greg Jennings.

    What I find interesting is that Shawn Crable, Jerod Mayo, and Jonathan Wilhite show up on the list of at least 2 coaches.

    Something else to keep in mind. If these coaches are feeding the Pats info, its not just on the positives of a player. They are also feeding them the negatives. Which could explain other players not having been picked.
     
  15. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    24,835
    Likes Received:
    371
    Ratings:
    +946 / 66 / -54

    #50 Jersey


    1) Please remember that Richardson, Stevenson and LeVoir were players whom Weis did NOT recruit. They were already in the program when he took over.

    This should be the 1st year that Weis recruits actually hit the draft.

    2) #94? Isn't that the pick the Pats used to take Kevin O'Connell? That all depends on what the Patriots saw in Fasano and Ayodele. I think Fasano is definitely an upgrade in blocking over Watson and Thomas, but he's not really an upgrade in the receiving aspect. Also, Fasano was coached by Weis for a year so Weis had some insight on him. And, considering how many of the Pats recent picks Weis has weighed in on, I think his voice may have carried some weight in the decision.
     
  16. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My first post since the draft. :singing:

    BB has mentioned how Florida's passing offense is different than most college offenses in that they're very similar to what the Pats do -- and the NFL in general. Players who play in that offense have a good understanding of passing concepts which (hopefully), will make their transition to the NFL an easy one.

    The Pats did their homework on Jackson (aside from Meyer's input) with their own scouts and coaches. Based on his career, impressive workouts, and that passing offense -- he was a solid pick. So why do they call the draft a crapshoot? ;)

    He did with Gay. Saban is known to be a hands-on coach -- especially with his DBs. It also remains a pet position for BB. And Alexander as we know, converted from Safety to LB at LSU.

    A little tidbit that's never been mentioned on this board is that Meyer was David Givens' WR coach at Notre Dame. So we now know their relationship goes back at least that far.

    Great topic!
     
  17. captain stone

    captain stone Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,176
    Likes Received:
    125
    Ratings:
    +376 / 68 / -50

    No Jersey Selected

    The reason I used #94 is that before the draft, Miami traded its first pick of the 4th round, #100 overall, to Dallas for Fasano & Ayodele. These 2 could have filled positions of need on the NEP: Blocking TE & ILB. FreeTedW was very high on Fasano, so I am curious if he would've made that deal. I'm still not sure if I would've made it.
     
  18. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,925
    Likes Received:
    286
    Ratings:
    +779 / 17 / -23

    #24 Jersey

    Although there's no evidence of this piece of the pipeline affecting the Patriots yet, remember that Virginia HC Al Groh is still good friends with Belichick too.
     
  19. PatDaPatriot

    PatDaPatriot On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Ferentz and Hill were assistant coaches for BB in Cleveland...
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2008
  20. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    5,051
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +48 / 11 / -4

    #54 Jersey

    That was an absolute steal, they got a adequate starting ILB and a very good backup TE for a 4th, sounds like a sweetheart deal between Dallas as Parcells.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>