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An overlooked AdamJT13 post

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by pats1, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For those who are mad about the Pats "not spending to the cap," it has indeed been done:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=301814&postcount=21

    That is the last post in the thread titled "Money Under the Cap Gone?"

    If anyone knows his stuff and gets the inside info, it's AdamJT13. And it's now clear the Pats have in one form or another used all of their cap space for 2006.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  2. jefmblrd

    jefmblrd Rookie

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    Why would the Patriots give Spann all of that money?
  3. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Gave Spann Almost $3 mil? No way, something is wrong.
  4. fillylabinga

    fillylabinga Rookie

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    This sounds highly dubious to me.

    Neither of these guys are signed for 2007. Why would the Pats give bonuses to guys unless they were reworking their contracts?

    As much as I would like it to be the case, if the Pats had resigned Troy Brown for next year I think we would have heard about it.

    And $3M for Spann? Please.
  5. Flying Fungi

    Flying Fungi Rookie

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    nice catch--thanks for bringing it back to the surface
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Jeez, guys, have you been under a rock ?

    That's the LTBE "trick" where you give a guy a Likely to Be Earned incentive that is charged against the cap now but when he doesn't earn it, the cap money is "returned" next year - in essence moving the money from this year's cap to next year's.
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Do not doubt AdamJT13. He is a legend among amateur cap guys - seriously.
  8. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    I remember hearing that there was something in the new CBA to prevent excessive use of the LTBE incentive trick. I guess not.
  9. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's an accounting trick teams use to transfer cap space to the next season.

    After a certain date (in November), all incentives that are added to contracts are automatically LTBE (Likely to be earned) and are thus counted against the current season's cap. Because Spann obviously won't achieve the incentive the Pats gave him, that $2.9 million gets transfered to next season as a $2.9 credit to the Pats' 2007 cap.
  10. fillylabinga

    fillylabinga Rookie

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    Thanks for reminding me about this--I remember reading about that loophole now.

    But then why split the money between Spann and Brown? Why not have all $3+mm go to Spann? Was that for accounting reasons too? Or did the Pats really give this bonus to Brown?

    I hope this is a case of them looking out for their own.

    Also, strangely, I feel kind of bad for Spann now.
  11. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    OK. My bad. It's a bean counter/lawyer trick. But I sure do hope tha Troy got his money.
  12. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Because Troy actually gets the $50,000. Signing bonuses are guaranteed.

    As far as the $350,000 LTBE vs. the $2.9 million, I guess that's just the way it went down.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2007
  13. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    I'm guessing that the $350k to Troy Brown may well be real money in his pocket. As a full-time starter this year, Brown has clearly out-played his contract. He may have hit an incentive and they want the money to count this year.
  14. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    I feel the same way. Why do it to Spann? He's actually out there making plays, unlike someone named Mr. C. Jackson.
  15. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It matters not. Nobody is getting paid anything.
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think there is anything amateur about Adam's understanding of the cap - his access is better than Clayton's.

    Sad thing is I've noticed in my periodic travels as a lurker that he's apparently a Cowboys fan. :eek:

    The union made it clear it now frowns on players agreeing to LTBE's used to circumvent the cap, although I believe they are more concerned about teams using them to achieve the minimum rather than save some room for next year. They also urged players and agents not to agree to them unless there was something in it for the player - in Spann's case, as a PS player, I would imagine making the team was incentive enough. The NFLPA offers far less to a player like that going forward then a greatful and appreciative coaching staff does. And he certainly further endeared himself to this management on Sunday when he pounced on that muffed punt. I think Troy likely got the $50K for accommodating the LTBE, although after what he did Sunday they may add that to whatever they intended to offer him to stick around next year.
  17. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    It gives off the image that Spann isn't doing anything so he has no chance at getting the bonus. Your right that in the end it doesn't matter though.
  18. rainmaker

    rainmaker Rookie

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    Not necessary. It may be something like number of INTs that wouldn't be achievable since he doesn't start. Not a big deal for Spann. He doesn't lose anything by it. The players union doesn't like it because they want some player to get paid now for it rather than wait a year.

    By the way, where is the sign Troy Brown to another year thread!
  19. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Spann won't get the money next year either if that's what you mean, but yes, the team will have $2.9 million extra cap space next year to "spend."
  20. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    The Krafts are still cheap. They could have printed those contracts off on high quality glossy photo paper, instead they elected to go with low grade brown paper towels.

    Just a classless, classless move.
  21. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Me, too. I have to think the bonus is set up so he will actually recieve it. If not, the Pats would have just put the money into Spann's phony-baloney bonus.
  22. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My (shaky) understanding of the new CBA is that the player has to get something out of such an accounting maneuver. In the case of a rookie minimum player, even an extra $50k or so for helping out could be pretty significant. That could well be why they chose a back-end roster guy....
  23. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    Un, you are rapidly becoming my favorite poster here.

    R
  24. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Just another troll...
  25. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    It's also possible that they did a real contract with Spann at the same time as the phoney LBTE incentive. If they like him enough to move him to the roster from the practice squad, they probably like him enough to bring to camp (and beyond?) next year.

    The only way we would know would be when his salary numbers hit the NFLPA website and/or when an enterprising reporter gets the story.
  26. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    I'm not suprised they didn't just totally waste or lose it. Whichever way you might look at it. I'd still rather have heard they'd gotten Graham or Samuel(or both) redone but of cousre it takes both sides to agree to that and that obviously didn't happen. There's going to be a lot of money around this FA season and I can't really blame players who's deal is up this year for wanting a piece.
  27. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    They rolled it over to 2007, as well as paying a bit for the priveledge. Now they have some credit to use against the "luxury tax" for signing Brady and Seymour.

    Somewhere else it was posted that the Pats ended the cap year Dec 30th with $0.78 cents cap surplus, small but a surplus as required. Else they would have had to cut somebody.
  28. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    accounting trick. LTG.
  29. AdamJT13

    AdamJT13 Rookie

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    That's correct, right down to the last dollar.

    And for those wondering, the LTBE loophole still exists in the amended CBA -- "Any new or altered incentive bonuses renegotiated in a preexisting contract after the start of the regular season in which they may be earned automatically will be deemed 'likely to be earned' during that season."

    There were 23 teams that used the loophole in December to push their remaining cap room forward into 2007.

    Also, Spann did not get anything out of the loophole. He signed only through 2006 and did not get any signing bonus.
  30. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    So, totaling here, we will have:

    $30.8 million underage (from Miguel's page)
    $1.9 million Koppen LTBE
    $2.9 million Spann LTBE
    $0.3 million Brown LTBE

    Putting us roughly $36 million under the cap. Wow. That has to be one of the highest figures in the league (though it'd be hard to track down the LTBE deals of other teams). It's really not fair, I do hope Polian is going to do something about this!

    I guess we do need to subtract achieved 2006 incentives also--could be significant dollars.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007

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