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An Inconvenient Truth

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Wolfpack, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Here's something the liberals don't want you to know. After all, anyone who learns the truth might be less likely to support their class warfare reelection strategy.

    FACT CHECK: Are rich taxed less than secretaries? - Yahoo! News

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama makes it sound as if there are millionaires all over America paying taxes at lower rates than their secretaries.

    "Middle-class families shouldn't pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires," Obama said Monday. "That's pretty straightforward. It's hard to argue against that."

    The data tell a different story. On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government.
     
  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Nothing in the bolded statements is contradictory.

    Has Obama, Buffett or anybody else claimed that all millionaires pay higer rates than all middle class or poor people?
     
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Overall I think the debate is leading towards the loopholes rather than the generalities ... as in the case of taxation on investment income vs job income.

    The tax code needs a huge overhaul ... most Americans want that except for those exploiting loopholes. It needs to be simplified and applied more evenly. Tax breaks and credits should be reviewed more often to reflect the current state of the American and world economy as it relates to the current income we generate to run the country.
     
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Al Gore says thank you for pimping his site..

    OTOH the rich have more deductions due to the structure of our tax system, they have higher interest payments, pay more local taxes, pay more taxes on their cars etc. They income levels are comparatively much lower due to these inequities..

    The reality is that the whole system needs an overhaul, and something like the Steve Forbes idea may be salient..

    When George Bush started the class warfare by only giving tax breaks to the rich it was supposed to spur the economy, but guess what happened.. the rich got richer, and the rest of us are mired in this never ending economic conundrum.
     
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    From the article.

    I'd support an overhaul of the tax code, but I won't support increasing income tax rates. I'd opt to eliminate and curb a lot of the deductions that are given instead. That, and up the cap gains tax to 20 and 25% as I posted in a previous thread. 15% is far too low IMO.

     
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    The wealthy in this country are really enjoying this "debate" about what their income tax rates should be compared to the rabble who toil under them. Sitting poolside, lifting their champaign glasses and laughing their fuggin arses off, they are.

    [​IMG]

    ...the standard of living of the working and middle classes is dependent upon income and wages, while the rich tend to rely on wealth, distinguishing them from the vast majority of Americans...wealth is not used for daily expenditures or factored into a budget but when coupled with income it comprises the family’s total opportunity “to secure a desired stature and standard of living, or pass their class status along to one’s children...wealth provides for both short- and long-term financial security, bestows social prestige, and contributes to political power, and can be used to produce more wealth...

    Dennis Gilbert (1998). The American Class Structure: In an Age of the Growing Inequality, quoting Melvin L. Oliver and Thomas M. Shapiro
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    The top 10% pay 70% of the taxes, but hold 80% of the wealth, most of it generationally passed along and stolen. Much of the oil and real estate wealth can be traced back to theft of natural resources and land. More of it has been generated by simply trading stocks and using financialgymnastics like hedge funds. none of these means of wealth accumulation can be seriously compared to a man or woman's labor at work. It's an absurd comparison.
     
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In my day it was, The Power Elite.. by C. Wright Mills..

     
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    I find this line pretty interesting. reminds me of how the banks are behaving today:

    ...their failure to act, their failure to make decisions, is itself an act that is often of greater consequences than the decisions they do make...
     
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Loopholes which are closed will be replaced with other loopholes, right? the only answer is to ban them completely.
     
  11. BSR

    BSR In the Starting Line-Up

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    I wonder what the lowest percentage of wealth the top 10% has ever owned. I'd guess that was never much lower.
     
  12. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I don't know what comparison you're referring to, but why would financial acumen somehow be lesser than other work? I don't think it should be placed above other jobs, but I don't see how it can go the other way, either. Nothing wrong with having a good mind and using it for profit.
     
  13. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Not wrong, just different.

    People who do physical and dangerous work cut their lives short. they die sooner and their bodies ache. It's very different, not to mention culturally unappreciated, IMO. Many people who work their arses off could have done differentwork like you describe, but for limitations they were born with. i know there are examples otherwise, but the poor tend to remain poor, not vice-versa if you know what Imean.
     
  14. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I agree re unappreciated. That said, there are plenty of people who don't do physical work who also cut their lives short, just for different reasons -- stress, being sedentary for 8-10 hrs a day, etc. those don't compare to people performing truly dangerous work, of course.
     
  15. BSR

    BSR In the Starting Line-Up

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    Is this true? I'm seriously asking because I thought the biggest cause of physical ailment after age 40 is stress related and not due to physical activity. If anything, most people that do physical labor are in better health than those with desk jobs.
     
  16. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Not true. the most dangerous jobs are farming and construction.

    I agree that stress is a major cause of sickness and death, but people who do dangerous and physical work also experience great stress not only from the work itself, but from the lower wages which create stress at home. No stress an accountant making 200 grand is inherently greater than that of a roofer, utility worker or farmer overall. Lack of equivalent access to healthcare has also been a feature of the working class.
     
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Noted:

    Most of today's white collar workers are under extreme stress because of the economy and shifting technologies. Most of these positions comprise a tiny fraction of the workforce, though. These are the "White Collar" jobs (not counting EMTs) that are considered most stressful:

    10. Real Estate Agent
    9. EMT
    8. Stockbroker
    7. Architect
    6. Advertising Account Executive
    5. Newscaster
    4. Photojournalist
    3. Senior corporate exec
    2. PR Exec
    1. Airline Pilot
     
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obama never said that all millionaires pay less income tax than secretaries, but the fact is that a large number do. Krugman, who provides a link, says the following:

    Billionaires and Secretaries - NYTimes.com

    Look at the IRS data on returns for the 400 highest incomes in America (pdf) — specifically, Table 43. If you look at the numbers since 2004, you’ll see that in a typical year between 30 and 40 percent of those super-high-income players paid an average tax rate of less than 15 percent; most of them paid less than 20 percent. Bear in mind that for the very wealthy the payroll tax — the main burden on working-class Americans — is trivial, because of the cap on Social Security and the fact that it only applies to earned income. And what becomes clear is that the Obama/Buffet claim is absolutely, totally true.

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/08intop400.pdf
     
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Those are the most stressful - not the most dangerous.

    The jobs with the highest death/injury rate are as follows:

    10. Construction laborers
    9. Drivers - salesmen and truckers
    8. Industrial machinery installers & maintenance workers
    7. Sanitation workers
    6. Iron and steel workers
    5. Roofers
    4. Farmers and ranchers
    3. Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
    2. Loggers
    1. Fishermen

    New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard
     
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There's another factor worth considering, namely lifespan of people based on jobs. Many jobs involve inhaling dangerous fumes or result in injuries that lead to shortened lifespan. For instance, fire fighters have a lifespan that is 12 years shorter than average. And one has to wonder if statistics about dangerous jobs take into account the shortened lifespan of troops who are injured, of asbestos workers, of hazmat workers, and so on.
     

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