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Among New York’s Soviet Immigrants, Affinity for G.O.P

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, May 12, 2012.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Like the Vietnamese boat people and refugees from Castro's Cuba, people who suffered under communism know what it smells like and avoid dems....guess they would agree with Allen West.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/n...cans.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper&pagewanted=all

    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    ... or they just want lower taxes and don't really think or care about the rest
  3. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    They're use to authoritarian governments, it feels like home.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sure just like the Vietnamese and Cubans..... or are you bigoted against immigrants who aren't interested in living on the welfare plantation?
  5. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Amusing. Ignorant, but amusing.
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A guy makes a comment, and it becomes some type of trend????
  7. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Either you don't know what the word "bigoted" means or your horrible reading comprehension has struck again.
  8. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    I assume you're saying that he's minimizing how bad the regimes they came from by comparing the GOP to them? If so, I'd agree -- but the same goes for comparing the Dems to them, too, wouldn't you say?
  9. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And I am sure these refugees from communism know a lot more about tyranny than you.
  10. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    and now you've "responded" with a non-sequitur

    Try to conduct a conversation like an adult, 13. :rolleyes:
  11. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    I semi serious, what made me think of it was seeing the old timers from the soviet era marching in support of bringing the good old days back. More order, less crime with all the secret police walking around.
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  12. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Absolutely. Also, most Russians and Eastern Euros have no desire to go back to the communist days, vocal minorities notwithstanding.

    They're definitely a minority. Of course, if they're citing crime figures from the Soviet days, they would be mistaken. And that's not counting crimes against humanity ;)
  13. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    That's funny and not funny at the same time and it could be true .... :nosmile:
  14. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Hebeill is right - - many people who are used to living under repressive regimes that focus resources on military and interior homeland security apparatuses are more comfortable with repression.

    Statistically, children of wife beaters are more apt to become wife beaters, children of drug addicts are more apt to become drug addicts...........
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  15. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Way to rush to the "bigot" card when someone made a point after YOU originated a point generalizing immigrants. His point was nothing more generalizing than yours. Only difference was the point of view.

    How about you stop playing a transparent game of "Gotcha", respect your forum and debate the point?
  16. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    How do you know this?
  17. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Look up "Stockholm Syndrome".
  18. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    So, in the case of the Soviet Union, you don't know, then.
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I do know. While my name is not Nikolai and I am not a Soviet immigrant, I have history with plenty of refugee communities who have made this country greater.

    In the 1970's and early 80's, I advocated for and worked with Refuseniks. I also have many non-immediate family members who were not Refuseniks, but who made it out after Gorbachev came to power. Later, I worked (TS/SCI cleared SIGINT analyst)for one of our intelligence agencies in the late 80's-early 90's with many refugees from areas of dictatorship. While it is silly to generalize "all" of any population (as PF13 does), there is a tendency of many of those with whom I know and work with for the "good" parts of what they hated - - the societal order, and lower tolerance policies that did not affect their particular situation.

    One sees it often in the Cuban, Venezuelan, Serbian, Arab American, etc. populations who came here for their personal freedom, but GENERALLY have positive views of the government regulating a women's right to reproductive choice, military adventurism, police crackdowns and lower tolerance for other groups. In fact, it's not just a GOP thing. Who elected James Traficant all those years?

    It is understandable. Few should be expected all of a sudden be able to speak a language fluently the minute they immigrate. Same thing with tolerance, diversity and governmental ideas of "personal freedom".

    And, when it comes to GENERALIZATIONS, read my first two posts (#14 and #15). Then look at the OP's posts. Want to discuss WHO is generalizing the concept of 'one size blanket fits all'?
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  20. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Solid post, shmessy. Now that I know where you're coming from, I've got a better grasp and appreciate what you're saying. My primary issue with your first post was "Hebeill is right--" when referring to his first post. He was making the kind of sweeping generalization that you decry (rightfully) in your post.

    SIGINT, eh? I'm sorry. :p

    EDIT: And sorry for the generalization about SIGINT. It's a fine field.

    While this is true to some degree, I think chico hit on the most salient point. The things that go on in this country, which we (as Americans sensitive to the smallest infringements on our rights) call "repression" are still a far cry from what had gone on in the Soviet Union, for example. I don't find "repressive GOP" or "repressive Dem" policies to be all that comparable to say, what the CPSU or like governments were doing.

    For an ironic twist, as you know, the USSR legalized abortion, after brief flirtation with prohibition, in the 1950s. So, I'm not so sure we could call that diagnostic in and of itself as proof of a liberalized society.

    As for why I think you're seeing former Soviets get behind the GOP in the NYC area? I happen to know dozens, and some very well, and it's actually far simpler than what we're making it out to be here. For myriad reasons, most see the Dems as the standard bearers of socialism, something they are loathe to even consider for this country.

    Of course, I don't subscribe to the idea that the GOP and the Dems are any more or less repressive than the other.

    Given your experience and knowledge, something that has come through in your posts previously, I hope you'll forgive me if I hold you to a higher standard.
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  21. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If that were the case they wouldn't have gone to all that trouble to leave. ;)
  22. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was having fun with a poster who on a regular basis plays the race card to play gotcha.

    Have you ever had a sense of humor in your life...... :rolleyes:
  23. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    It's no surprise that you would see calling out racist posts as "playing gotcha."

    If you want to question the actual content of any of those posts, have at it.

    Meanwhile, your question re being bigoted in this thread remains completely unfounded -- just more garbage from a horrible "moderator" and horrible poster who's happy with the handful of posters here who are actually bigoted.

    edit: btw, is that an admission you were just making things up? is that an exception to the rules, or is it just another one of those things that you can do but others can't?
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  24. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    Forgot to add after feels like home, it feels safe and secure. Not living under an authoritarian government feels abnormal.
  25. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    Ahh but they can live better here, the shelves are stocked, better chance of getting a job, and at one time you could get cheap credit.

    More and more i think the pubbies want to move the country more toward the chinese model. The citizens give up their freedom for a few consumer crumbs. The average chinese citizen now lives better, probably has an apartment, i-phone tv, maybe a car etc. it keeps the masses pacified while the ruling elite are fabulously rich.
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  26. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Thank you, Nikolai, I appreciate your thoughtful posts also - - as opposed to the juvenile "moderator" who continues to astound in this thread. Talk about a backwards situation. I've never seen a scenario on any website where the general posters are the ones have to elevate the level of discourse.

    Regarding SIGINT, I left the "No Such Agency" 19+ years ago because I wanted to go into private sector financial planning - it is a fine field with many excellent folks who do things to keep our nation safe that we will never read about. You didn't have to apologize - - I knew you were kidding. :)

    I fully agree with your point about the definitions of "repression" used between people used to American society and those that came from truly repressive societies.

    Regarding the former Soviet citizens in the NY area, the NYT article (near the end of the piece) also points out the quote from the first Soviet emigre to win office in NY (a democrat) that ironically many of his constituents have no problem working for state funded health providers or receiving benefits from welfare, etc.

    As with any immigrant group, the first generation may have left under adverse conditions, but may feel uncomfortable with new and unfamiliar social concepts in their new home. Tolerance and diversity are a new experience for them. For many, it can be a suspicious concept. The second , third, etc. generations grow comfortable with the freedoms in this country.
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  27. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    I hadn't read this post and i was going to make the same comparison but then i dropped the idea. I know someone who grew up in an abusive relationship, she goes from one wife beater to another, its like she doesn't feel comfortable if shes not being abused. Growing up she watched her mother being hit and its ingrained that this how its suppose to be. (a reality many abused women have) Conversely her brothers are abusive to their wives. Someone commented that i was comparing the gop to communists, of course i understand that there is no comparison, but if posters here can continuously compare obama and the dems to hitler and the nazis, stalin, mao etc. its only fair that i should be able to make the same absurd leap.
    Last edited: May 13, 2012
  28. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    I interact with SIGINT folks from time to time, and, of course, at the occasional AFCEA get together. Smart people.

    I think that's part of the puzzle in exposing the Democrats = Communism fallacy that's become en vogue of late.

    I'd say that's a very fair statement. The anecdotal evidence, in my experience, bears it out. The differences among members of my family who are first generation versus second or third generation are pretty remarkable, even if all express profound ambivalence toward communism.

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