Welcome to PatsFans.com

America's newest ally against Bin Ladin; Iraq

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patriot_in_NY, Jun 10, 2008.

  1. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +34 / 0 / -0

    More stuff most of you don't want to hear..........

    The leader of "the Anbar Awakening", the loose confederation of Iraqi sheiks that fought to expel AQ from Al Anbar province has offered the United States, Men and support in order to continue thier fight against Al Qaeda - in PAKISTAN.

    Yup. It's not a joke either............. I think they are willing, and probably better able to help. These guys sure have some serious stones.

    READ THE ARTICLE, it's interesting.

  2. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    Financial Cost of Unnecessary War? $1-3 Trillion

    Cost in Brave young American lives? 4,000+

    Rise in Oil Per Barel since start of war? +412%

    Cost in Dollar Denomination? -40%

    Getting one heavily American-funded Sheik (out of hundreds in Iraq) to not bite the hand that feeds him? PRICELESS.
    __________

    "Hor$e$hit, It's Everywhere You Want it To Be."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_movements_in_Iraq
    _________
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  3. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    BTW, to shed a little light on exactly WHO The Anbar Awakening is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_movements_in_Iraq

    History
    In 2005, the Abu Mahals, a tribe that smuggled across the Syrian border [Shmessy: what the HELL were they smuggling across the Syrian border?????], was being forced out of their territory by a tribe allied with Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia [Shmessy: translation - Competing Gangsta Tribe]. The tribe proposed an alliance with the United States force in November of 2005 and began receiving weapons and training.[6][1] In 2007 the leader of the movement, Sheik Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi, formed the Anbar Awakening Council also called "Anbar Awakening" to counter the influence of Al-Qaeda in Iraq.[6]

    Sheik Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi was assassinated by a suicide bombing in September 2007.[7] His brother, Abdul-Jabbar Abu Risha, took over as leader, but so far has been unable to unite the various awakening militias.[1].........

    .........The Iraqi Defense Ministry has said that it plans to disband the Awakening groups so they do not become a separate military force. "We completely, absolutely reject the Awakening becoming a third military organization," Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul-Qadir al-Obaidi said. Al-Obaidi said the groups also wouldn't be allowed to have any infrastructure, such as a headquarters building, that would give them long-term legitimacy.[3]........

    ...........Deborah D. Avant, director of international studies at the University of California-Irvine, said there are ominous similarities between the awakening councils and armed groups in past conflicts that were used for short-term military gains but ended up being roadblocks for state building.[4]

    According to Ramzy Mardini, an Iraq expert at The Jamestown Foundation, "the rise of the Awakening councils may risk reigniting the Jaysh al-Mahdi". On February 22, 2008, Muqtada al-Sadr announced that he will extend his ceasefire on his Jaysh al-Mahdi militia.[9] But according to Mardini, the uncertainty facing the Awakening movement's status may cut that ceasefire short. Mardini suggests that if the movement's demands are not satisfied by Iraq's central government, the U.S. 'surge' strategy is at risk for failing, "even to the point of reverting back to pre-surge status". Those demands include that Awakening fighters be incorporated into Iraq's security forces, having permanent positions and payrolls.[9]
    _______________________________

    Isn't this how WE gave birth to Al Qaeda back in the 1980's? Wasn't Osama Bin Laden our "little buddy" in Afghanistan against the Soviets?

    Seriously, America's and American's ignorance of the Middle East and history is a VERY dangerous thing.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  4. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    BTW the head of Saddam Hussein's Tribe was blown to smithereens a few hours ago.

    Coincidentally, he was the Founder of one of those "Awakening Councils".

    http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkx-3oYeFwuWKCusr2jrojs98w8wD9176IFO0

    "As the head of the clan, al-Nida received Saddam's body after his 2006 execution and arranged the former dictator's funeral. In 2007, he founded a so-called Awakening Council in Saddam's home village of Ouja, partnering with U.S. forces to fight Sunni militants in the area."


    Hmmmm, so we are (or were) paying bakshish to Saddam's steadfast hometown political crony. Oh yeah, that guy must have been a HUGE fan of the United States and Jeffersonian Democracy!
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  5. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +34 / 0 / -0

    OH NO......................... We might win, lemme google and find out who this Awakeing people are, so I can discredit them.

    Note to "now" interested Shmessy - Most of us that have actually followed the war already KNEW who, and what these people are. The object is to win. Counterinsurgency is a doctrine that is goal-oriented, not moral oriented.

    The ability to turn people from trying to blow you up and make them try to blow the other guy up, is sheer genius.

    Piss, whine and cry all you want about how and why this all got started. I'm cool with that, so long as the people doing DOING THE REAL work are doing what it takes to win.

    In 20 years, People will put much more emphasis on how we left, than how we got there.

    PS, Noice to see you celebrating the death of a guy that was actually helping the US and was no longer trying to kill our troops. WAYY to go. Next step is to actively start cheering for AQ. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  6. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    Patriot in NY,

    Before you look down your nose at my qualifications to comment on this area of the world, son, you ought to know that I was a TS/SI Middle East analyst with the NSA during the Reagan and Bush I administrations (you know, the war we won with clearly demarcated goals and objectives - - not this ridiculous quagmire). I also received many awards during DS for my outstanding work from the very top of the Agency. So before you start questioning others' loyalties to our country, wipe your nose.

    My left pinky knows more about the situation over there than you will ever know.

    And no one was celebrating any death. Cheering for AQ? If you can read and comprehend my post, you would see my goal is to AVOID CREATING NEW AL QAEDAS.

    Let's see YOU pass multiple polygraph tests and psychological examinations on YOUR loyalty to our country. Let's see YOU travel under cover and under personal risk to foreign countries on behalf of your nation.

    Piss off.

    Best regards,

    The "Now Interested" Shmessy
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  7. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,548
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +34 / 0 / -0

    You have no idea my qualifications are, yet you know your left pinky knows more than I'll ever know........ Gee thanks :singing:

    by the way, nobody ever questioned loyalty. non-understanding perhaps, but that's not the same. I just said I knew exactly who and what this guy was, and your posting (like its a good thing) the death of a guy that who, while being a serious POS, is no longer working counter to our goals. It's nothing to hoist up, good or bad.

    Quagmire?? that was a word for 2003-2007, if your still using it.......... It's political, not reflective of current event, which while still in the "precarious" stages, are certainly no longer a "quagmire". There is still a change to extricate in a satisfactory manner. You do not declare defeat before it's occurred. I'm sure back in your NSA days, you were training to analyze outside emotion, NO? Your postings here bely reason and SEEM (perhaps I'm wrong) emotional, more rear-thinking, and ideological driven. I wouldn't expect that from your background, so pardon me.

    Personal feelings aside for the war, for or against. We are there. I'm not pleased with about 80% of what's been done stratigically over there. At this point, I don't care about that. At this point, we shouldn't care if they like us or view us a occupiers. Our priority should be stability and let them reconstruct (with our help) the best possible result for them to live with in the future. Hopefully it's in line with the geopolitical purposes we had in mind going over there, but if not, that is okay too (for me). I seems that's what's happening to an extent, it just wasn't on anybody's timetable, and that all "the Awakening" means to us. Proof of which is in the article I posted.

    You, of ALL people should understand that.

    Once again, without knowing who your talking to, don't presume to say you are more intelligent, or have DONE MORE, you just don't know?

    I won't if you won't, deal?

    Little rough for a moderator, wouldn't you think? I may have offended you (apologize if I did), but I surely didn't stoop to this level.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  8. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,834
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0

    #80 Jersey

    DING DING DING!!!!!!! Shmessy wins, flawless vitory.

    seems to me that everyone we attempt to 'help' ends up biting us in the arse a few years down the line.

    CUT THEM OFF! lets take care of our problems at home before 'helping' other people fight wars.
  9. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    If you guys are done trying to out-piss each other :)D), how about we take advantage of Shmessy's knowledge on the subject (nothing personal, PiNY, I just know his quals and don't know yours, you seem a smart guy too) and maybe learn something? I know that's kind of a strange concept for this board (and I plead guilty as anyone).

    How about a thumbnail sketch of the issue? Because honesty, after the third "al Boomini" my eyes glaze over. And that's not a good thing...but maybe "Middle East for Dummies"?
  10. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,834
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0

    #80 Jersey

    here ya go....I'll make it really simple.

    Al Qaeda translates to mean "The Base"
    "The Base" references the CIA's data BASE for mujahadeen fighters.
    We funded these "Base" fighters during the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan
    These Fighetrs learned tactics, on YOUR tax dime.
    These Fighters were given weapons, with YOUR tax money.

    I believe you already know about "jundullah".... I'm pretty sure I asked you to google it. Well, its yet another group (started by Al qaeda members) we are funding.....to fight in Iran....do you smell whats cooking?

    The same can be said iin the pats with Saddam, Iran...the list goes on and on. We seem to pick a side, fund and train it, then the dog bites the hand. THAT is history. wanna know how I know? Because it keeps repeating because our leaders don't seem to follow the basic "History for Dummies Chapter:1"

    "If we don’t learn from history we are doomed to repeat it"
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  11. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    B.S. Here's your EXACT quote:

    "PS, Noice to see you celebrating the death of a guy that was actually helping the US and was no longer trying to kill our troops. WAYY to go. Next step is to actively start cheering for AQ."
    _____________

    This crap about 'If you disagree with me, you are anti-American and with the terrorists' has got to go......seriously. It's crap.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  12. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    I didn't ask you, I asked Shmessy.

    LOL.

    And that's not the quote. The quote is more like "if men will learn from history, what lessons it may teach us".

    ;)
  13. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,834
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0

    #80 Jersey

    word....

    here is another one for you.....with all the leadup to Iran etc.

    "Don't believe the hype!" - Carlton Douglas Ridenhour (Chuck D)
  14. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    It wasn't the quals that pissed me off there so much. It was the questioning of my LOYALTY by someone who had no idea about me or where I've been.......only because I had a different opinion. That's pure and unadulterated crap and I will go off on PatriotinNY anytime he pulls that in the future.

    A decade and a half after leaving the agency, I still cannot say anymore about my experience than what they cleared me to put on my resume. I proudly honor that committment to my grave. I was honored to work there and truly admire those folks for what they do (although, I'm not crazy with the very different mission they have been given the past few years).

    If someone disagrees with someone, stop the "you're a disloyal American" crap. No one single viewpoint invented and copyrighted our nation.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  15. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey

    Hey, a. I just got back and am in between meetings, but willl be happy to take up the subject a bit later. For the cliff's notes version, all you have to do is see the excellent (and entertaining ) movie "Charlie Wilson's War". - - also Holy Diver did a pretty good job of it a few posts back (other than screwing up the Santayana quote!).
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  16. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    I understand that. I'm guilty of it myself, although I try not to do it.

    But what I don't understand is the basic mechanics of the whole thing.

    Are there any factions there we can trust? One of the saddest lessons of Vietnam had to do with who could be trusted to be allies.

    Is the situation the same in the ME...or worse, based on more factions, tribes, whatever the proper term is?
  17. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey


    As an American you can't trust anyone there. They've been bargaining in the souq for thousands of years. Their only allegiance is to family and tribe. Iraq is not a "nation". It all comes down to that.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  18. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    5,271
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    So...my initial belief that in order to preserve "peace" there, a strong, almost brutal leader (you know, like ol' what's his name) is actually a necessity, and you bargain with that leader to keep the peace.
  19. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    15,273
    Likes Received:
    88
    Ratings:
    +183 / 2 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Why does everyone want to keep harping about mistakes that were made, when it is a fact that mistakes were made.

    There was one peson who could have stopped the Iarq war before it started, Saddam Hussien. All he had to do is come clean about what he had and give dates, places, and how what he had was destroyed. For some reason he didn't. Hans Blits (sp) came back and reported that he didn't cooperate so they could verify.

    What everyone should be looking at is how do we withdraw from Iraq leaving it a place that is not taken over by terrorist,Iran, and is friendly to the West. Just walking out now would be the worst thing we could do. Progress has been made over the past year so let's finish it and not piss it away.

    The woulda, coulda, and shoulda arguments mean nothing right now. History will decide over the long term.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008
  20. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,032
    Likes Received:
    478
    Ratings:
    +1,193 / 9 / -7

    #75 Jersey


    This thread isn't about the mistakes made in the past. It is all about continuing to fund and work with each of these tribal sheikdoms going forward.

    THAT is short-term strategizing that will bite us in the future. Let's hold our administration to account to come up with a better long-term policy that will benefit the US AFTER January 2009. What I see here is an "Apres moi le deluge" policy which polishes a political apple for 7 months and leaves our nation standing holding a bucket of manure for years after.

    BTW, isn't anyone curous to know exactly WHAT our "allies" the Rishawi brothers were smuggling to Iraq from Syria before the AQ tribe cut in on their "business"??????? Note: They were smuggling across the Syrian-Iraqi border against the EXPRESS warnings of the United States of America in 2003, 2004 and 2005.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2008

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>