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Americans Aged 18-29 More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitalism

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  2. Real World

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    Re: Americans Aged 18-29 Have A More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitali

    Deadbeat USA.
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Re: Americans Aged 18-29 Have A More Favorable Response To Socialism Than To Capitali


    :rofl: .... they do exist in larger numbers in their parents basements don't they.
  4. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Find that interesting since the Ron Paul crowd was that demographic.
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I lived under Swedish socialism. I found it it wonderful. My taxes were very high, but there was no crime to speak of, health care was free (even had a doctor come to my apartment on a Sunday night once), dental care was cheap, there were virtually no homelessness, even cheap apartments were clean and of a high standard, wages were good, everyone got 5 weeks of paid vacation, the water and air were extremely clean (fishing right in the city center), mass transit was superb, the national pension plan was supposedly quite good, and they were highly successful in keeping HIV down and drug addiction down. I lived there in the 1990s when the stupid American conservatives were gleeful because they thought the Swedish economy was collapsing. Instead, Sweden did some restructuring and today it's one of the strongest economies in Europe.

    Despite all the wonderful things about it, the fact is that prices were quite high and the society was so egalitarian it lacked the excitement and dynamism of the United States. But, the reality is for raising kids and for the middle class it's a better system than the one we have here, but of course most Americans are simply ignorant of other nations, having never lived abroad.

    Democratic socialism is a good thing, and that's part of the reason I hope that Romney gets defeated. While Obama is no socialist, he's certainly not going to do what Romney wants and restore the Gilded Age.
  6. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    Sweden is thriving. At least compared to other countries, Sweden has done pretty well during the financial crisis. Some people, like Paul Krugman, seem to think this is due to extensive bailouts and the nationalization of private corporations at the beginning of the 1990s that supposedly "saved" Sweden from market-imposed disaster. Whereas it is true that a bank was nationalized and billions of dollars were pumped into "saving" the overvalued Swedish krona back in 1992, this attempt failed at an enormous cost to Swedish taxpayers.

    What followed a short period of complete chaos while the central bank pushed interest rates to 500 percent (yes, 500 percent) was a currency in free fall. Obviously, its superficially high value could not be "defended" against the market's much more correct valuation, despite government's very serious attempt to do so. Political panic ensued, soon followed by the realized necessity to get public finances under control.

    Since that time, as I discuss in more detail in Back on the Road to Serfdom (ed. Tom Woods), the Swedish government — regardless of ruling party — has consistently had balanced budgets and paid off the national debt. In fact, since 1992 the national debt has gone from around 80 percent to less than 40 percent of GDP according to a recent report from the Swedish National Debt Office. And this includes antirecession measures taken throughout 2009.


    But there's another truth about the Swedish economy that was only recently uncovered. There is now proof that Sweden, even in terms of official statistics, isn't that great and actually experienced no real economic growth (at least in terms of real jobs, which should be of obvious interest to Keynesians) for more than half a century.

    In an article (unfortunately available in Swedish only) published in the Swedish Economics Association's journal Ekonomisk Debatt in 2009, Ratio Institute economists Bjuggren and Johansson show the sad truth. Relying on public data from the government agency Statistics Sweden ("SCB" in Swedish, an acronym standing for the Central Bureau of Statistics) and using a new classification system to denote ownership, they found that there has been no job creation at all in the private sector from 1950 to 2005.

    Yes, you read that correctly: there was no net increase in the number of jobs in the private sector in Sweden over a period of 55 years. In other words, starting five years after the end of the Second World War, the Swedish economy was at a complete standstill.

    Stagnating Socialist Sweden - Per Bylund - Mises Daily
  7. DocHoliday

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    Considering Sweden's population has only increased by 2.5 million in that time period while productivity and efficiency have both increased (which means they should have lost jobs due to mechanization, etc) that is pretty ideal.

    Why would Sweden need more jobs?

    If that doesn't sell it for you, consider Sweden's rankings on pretty much everything. Their purported stagnancy of private sector jobs doesn't seem to have hurt them once bit.

    All I can conclude is that they must have enough private sector jobs and the lack of more hasn't hurt them.

    As for the survey, I really want to see what the questions were. For all we know it could have been:

    1.) Does the income disparity bother you in this country?
    2.) Would you like to see less income difference between the rich and poor?

    With Yes for both being code of socialism.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  8. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    They asked them to respond to the words socialism and capitalism...posititively or negatively. I'm not sure exactly how a poll like that can be considered biased.
  9. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Rookie

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    In a Europe plagued by debt crises, one country has no budget deficit at all and is currently returning to surplus. This same country is consistently among Europe's fastest growing economies, with GDP growth set to hit 4% this year.

    That country is Sweden. For many years, foreign policy-makers have pointed to Sweden as a positive model to follow, making Swedes like me proud. Too often, though, foreigners have drawn the wrong lessons from Sweden's success. For instance, whenever I give a lecture, anywhere in Europe, about economic reform, I always get the following response: "But you come from Sweden, which is socialist and successful—why should we launch free-market policies ?"

    The simple truth is that Sweden is not socialist. According to the World Values Survey and other similar studies, Sweden combines one of the highest degrees of individualism in the world, solid trust in well-functioning institutions, and a high degree of social cohesion. Among the 160 countries studied in the Index of Economic Freedom, Sweden ranks 21st, and is one of the few countries that increased its economic freedoms during the financial crisis. Sweden gets higher scores for liberal markets than Germany and Belgium, or reformers such as Cyprus and Georgia.

    It's true that Sweden wasn't always so free. But Sweden's socialism lasted only for a couple of decades, roughly during the 1970s and 1980s. And as it happens, these decades mark the only break in the modern Swedish success story.

    Socialism was fashionable in post-War Europe and Sweden was not immune. The 1970s were a decade of radical government intervention in society and in markets, during which Sweden doubled its overall tax burden, socialized a slew of industries, re-regulated its markets, expanded its public systems, and shuttered its borders. In 1970, Sweden had the world's fourth-highest GDP per capita. By 1990, it had fallen 13 positions. In those 20 years, real wages in Sweden increased by only one percentage point.

    By the late 1980s, though, Sweden had started de-regulating its markets once again, decreased its marginal tax rates, and opted for a sound-money, low-inflation policy. In the early 1990s, the pace quickened, and most markets except for labor and housing were liberalized. The state sold its shares in a number of companies, granted independence to its central bank, and introduced school vouchers that improved choice and competition in education. Stockholm slashed public pensions and introduced private retirement schemes, keeping the system demographically sustainable.

    These decisive economic liberalizations, and not socialism, are what laid the foundations for Sweden's success over the last 15 years. After the reforms of the early 1990s, Swedes' real wages increased by roughly 35% in a decade.

    Even smarting from the financial crisis, Swedes turned the leftists down. Over the last four years, they have seen their borders opened for more labor migration, they have seen still more state-owned companies sold, and have seen their public authorities shrink in number. Stockholm has also cut property taxes and abolished the wealth tax, and instituted a new system of income-tax credits that lets working people with average incomes keep what amounts to an extra month of wages, after taxes, per year. Today, the state's total tax take comes to 45% of GDP, from 56% ten years ago.

    Meanwhile, unemployment benefits, sick leave and early retirement plans have all been streamlined to encourage work. The number of people receiving such welfare—which soared during the socialist decades—has fallen by 150,000 since 2006, a main reason for Sweden's remarkably sound public finances. Stockholm has also introduced a law that empowers Swedes to chose their providers for health care and other public services. This has led to a robust surge in entrepreneurship within the health-care sector, where more competition is bound to improve services.


    The Swedish Model - WSJ.com
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Then I suggest you move to Sweden...America is NOT going to become socialist.

  11. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Not surprised 18-29 find socialism favorable.

    I do not see a solid work ethic in that generation. Heck, maybe they believe "everyone deserves the same" and want their gov't to take care of them while previous generation did everything they could to not be on gov't assistance.

    It used to be one didn't want anyone to know they were on gov't assistance. But with so many relying upon nany-state gov't today, I can see many of them voting to continue it.

    Maybe the younger generation desires a less stressful life than their parents have...who knows.

    One fact is for certain....NO ONE can compare Sweden or any tiny nation to the US and believe what works there can work here because that's just false. Large mega-nations like the US have massively higher infrastructure costs compared to countries like Sweden.

    No country has any interest in attacking Sweden....not true of our country. So our military costs as a percent of our GDP will always need to much higher than Sweden's.

    Comparing Sweden to the US is like comparing Proctor & Gamble to the little mom & pop store down the street. They are not comparable.
  12. 1960Pats

    1960Pats Rookie

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    #75 Jersey


    As hard as democrats try to push us there? I wish I had your confidence.

    Let me also add that I'd rather see Americans go to Sweden than bring Sweden to America. I'd rather fix this country and get back to what the founding fathers intended. They seem to still have it right.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  13. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    To play Devil's Advocate here....isn't it "easy" to provide all that stuff when you have a total population +/- the size of one of our cities (NYC)? Not to mention, I assumed you lived in a city - where public transit is prevalent.

    ie. if you ask someone who lives in the South End of Boston- they would say "mass transit is superb" while if you ask someone who lives in say Halifax MA they might say "what mass transit?"

    Please note I am not bad mouthing the joys of Sweden's life style. Just simply pointing out that how good 9M people have it in Sweden is about as relevant to us here in the states as me stating how bad 280M people have it in Indonesia.

    For better or worse - our population size, how spread out it is and the size of our country area wise do work against us having that type of utopia here at home.

    Could we have some of it? Sure I think we could. But it wouldn't be on a national level.
  14. 1960Pats

    1960Pats Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Why would anyone be surprised that our kids are growing up thinking socialist? They're getting fed propaganda from K thru college.
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    WOW!! Great minds really do think alike!
  16. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    I absolutely agree 100 percent. Limited Democratic socialism is the ONLY way that this nation's abundant wealth can be equitably distributed. Capitalists who want more than their share still will have the ability to make their way.
  17. Drewski

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    #87 Jersey

    Hahaha I guess I could have just "liked" your post instead of posting my question which was very similar to your's.

    In looking up Sweden's tax system - it seems their mean rate for Personal Income is somewhere around 45-50%.

    I'm not sure about anyone else, but I personally would have no interest whatsoever in paying .45-.50 (or more) of every dollar I earn in tax.

    To each their own I guess.
  18. Drewski

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    #87 Jersey

    Can you explain your POV on why wealth SHOULD be distributed equality?

    While I think there are certainly pitfalls in both arguments, I still hold the opinion that I should be able to have and make more than you if I am willing to do more than you (general terms obviously).

    I look forward to hearing your POV. Thanks for indulging me.

    D
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nothing, nothing is forever:
    Someday in the near future America will change drastically, America will become another Europe, the radicals in America who are using The Constitution To Destroy The Constitution will be the winners.

    Tom Sawyer and The Wizard Of Oz will be gone forever:

    God Willing Death To The Great Satan America.

    So Long

    :bricks:
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Lotsa luck!:D

    You are more than free donate your money to whomever you please.
  21. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    As Patters insightfully pointed out, the quality if life from top to bottom in Sweden is better than ours because of superior social policy. But the American system would forever remain different from the Swedish model, for example, simply because of this country's fervent capitalistic orientation. That will never go away. So, the opportunity to better one's lot individually will always be in place. The only difference would be getting taxed at a higher rate.
  22. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    Here's where the danger in America lies.....

    In the past 5-10 years, we've added MILLIONS onto the gov't dole in the form of food stamps, free cell phones, soc sec disability, etc.

    The more Americans that are added to gov't assistance, the more likely they'd support SOCIALISM....or more socialism than we have today.

    What they do not understand is that Sweden's unemployment rate is much lower and their labor participation rate is higher than ours.

    In other words, they have fewer deadbeats than we do and they have a larger percent of their available labor pool working than we do. And they have fewer people working for their gov't as a percent of their population than we do.

    What works in Sweden can't work in the US. We'd have to have even higher tax rates than Sweden to do what they do.

    I would take up arms and fight if my gov't told me I had to give them 50% or more of MY earnings....that is how strongly I feel about this issue.

    SMALLER federal gov't....not LARGER federal gov't is my choice!

    I've never like big government or politicians in general....doubt I'll ever change
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  23. PatriotsReign

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    I pay enough taxes and can't afford any more.

    If you add up all forms of taxes we pay in the US, it's darn close to 40% right now

    All Federal Taxes
    All state taxes
    Gasoline Tax
    Sales Tax
    Restaurant Tax
    Hotel tax
    Internet tax
    Cell phone tax
    Cable TV tax
    Air travel taxes
    Property Tax
    All state and local fees are taxes
    Toll fees

    How high would you like to go Tune?

    No one deserves a gov't subsidized cell phone!!! That's for sure.

    There is only one thing uglier than greed and that is LAZINESS.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  24. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    Understood. And thank you for providing a "true" response to the question, and not some bumper sticker response.

    However, you never explained why wealth should be equal.

    To answer my own question - I am of the opinion that the only equality we are guaranteed is the equal opportunity to pursue your happiness.

    What you do (or don't do) in that pursuit is left to the individual and has consequences.

    For instance - I strive to support my family as well as I can (that is my "happiness"). However, I fully recognize (and accept) that I will never be able to support my family as well as I could if I were say a Doctor; as my wealth will never be equal to what a Doctor's would/could be.

    To take that to another direction. Let's say that I am the greatest SQL Developer in the land. Do you think my skills should be rewarded equally to say Tom Brady, as he is the greatest QB in the land? He's pulling down millions between salary and endorsements, while I am clearly not.

    That is acceptable to me, because a person should be rewarded "as well" as the market deems their skills worth. $20M is apparently the going rate for NFL greatness, while the greatness in SQL is not nearly as rewarding.

    Is that acceptable to you?

    D
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  25. PatriotsReign

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    Yes, of course it is!:D

    Don't you believe everyone deserves an iphone? After all, we don't want children to feel "less than" others do we?:rolleyes:

    The question we need to ask anyone touting the benefits of socialism vs our system is,

    "Could you show me a successful socialist nation of 300+ million people with 3,794,083 square miles and that allows as much immigration as we do?"

    And then wait the rest of your life for an answer! ;)
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  26. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    The list of countries with a situation like ours is small, on the order of one.

    Only making a point that what you said probably isn't the best way to make your point. Sample size is too small
  27. PatriotsReign

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    There are exactly ZERO socialist countries with a population, geographic area and immigration policy comparable to ours.

    My point was Sweden can not be compared to the US in any discussion regarding socialism.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  28. Drewski

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    #87 Jersey

    Understood - there is no other country on Earth with the geographic size, population and population distribution that we have.

    But in realizing that, how can we get a system closer to what was discussed, Sweden's?

    How do you pay for and ensure access to a HealthCare system of 300M people?

    How do you spend to have State of the Art mass transit across the entire area (not every city and town obviously, but general "Transportation Hubs")?

    How do you spend ensure there are no homeless?

    How do you spend to ensure no crime?

    All of those things are much easier when you are dealing with an area (Sweden) roughly the size of California with the population of North Carolina.
  29. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    EASY....just set the minimum tax rate at 60%!! It not really YOUR money ya know!;)
  30. Drewski

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    #87 Jersey

    I'm on record here as stating that I think our Tax Code is FUBAR'd and should be redone and also on record as saying (something to effect) that each person should pay the minimum which the government states it needs from each person - I don't know what that percentage is.

    I personally am in favor a flat tax; above a certain income floor, and doing away with most deductions. You made X, you owe X*.09 (or enter your % here ).

    It would not be 45 or 50 or more percent though - simply because we have 33 times the population Sweden does.

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