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Am I the only one who thinks the Pats looked terrible?


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PF1996, this has been a rough day for you. You have been KEEGS'd right out of the chute. But if it'll make you happy, I'll go with you:

The Patriots were really hyped up and they could only score 10 points?!

They lost to the Bucs?!

We're screwed!

They got shoved around pretty good! Oh no!

Meriweather missed that tackle! (Never mind he actually played a huge role in the fumble by getting the penetration in the first place.)

The OL - which the rest of those joker Pats "fans" say did a good job protecting Brady - actually SUCKED! Brady was hurried one time!

Good Lord, man, just sit down. You're getting killed on here.
 
By the way, how about we go back to the original title of this thread and see which group is being needlessly hysterical and which group is being tempered in their comments, even WITH their/our hyperoblic response to the breathless panic of 1996.

"Am I the only one who think the Pats looked terrible?"

Terrible. TERRIBLE. That is out and out, brain-dead, F-ing RIDICULOUS. You lose. We win. Nice try.
 
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By the way, how about we go back to the original title of this thread and see which group is being needlessly hysterical and which group is being tempered in their comments, even WITH their/our hyperoblic response to the breathless panic of 1996.

"Am I the only one who think the Pats looked terrible?"

Terrible. TERRIBLE. That is out and out, brain-dead, F-ing RIDICULOUS. You lose. We win. Nice try.

of course he thought the Pats looked terrible. He is a jealous Rams fan. :D
 
PF1996, I think most here would agree with what the players are saying about this game: We have plenty to work on. That's it. There's nothing about last night's game that should have people worried, only that we need to improve, and we will.

Think back to Week 1, 2004. We played Indy and won when Willie sacked Peyton, forcing a longer FG and Vanderjagt missed. Other than that key sack and some timely turnovers, our defense was absolutely dominated in that game, the Colts did what they wanted to us. 202 yards rushing for 4.8 ypc. 446 yards allowed total, more than any game in 2003. Even though it was the Colts, people were still concerned. Was it a mistake letting Hamilton and Ted Washington go? Is our D going to look like it did back in 2002?

By the end of the 2004 season: 9th in total yards allowed, 6th in rushing yards and 2nd in points.

Better example: 31-0 loss to Buffalo in Week 1 of 2003. Every aspect of the team looked beyond awful. We then went 17-1 the rest of the way.

Again, it's just a matter of the players needing to keep working. It isn't time to panic.

It's good to finally see a rational post which actually focuses on the points rather than act as though I claimed the Pats weren't going to win a game for the rest of the year. This thread isn't an expression of panic but rather disappointment that I didn't see the expected signs of improvement. Perhaps my expectations were too high and those improvements will show in the next game, or maybe the third (hopefully by the time the season gets here). It's just disconcerting to see the same issues that plagued us last year so I'm concerned. I was also concerned after the Indy and Buffalo games and just because things improved then doesn't mean we should never be concerned by poor play.

Well I guess this means wait until next year...I didn't think the run D looked good and saw LB's 1st move be the wrong one too often. There will never be a game where the other team doesn't complete passes and the Patriots DB's end up making tackles after the catch. Be glad they made the tackle. The O was missing it's starting RB, probable 2 starting WR's and thier 3 top TE's. So how was the O supposed to look? what I saw was a capable, A Smith like backup RB, backup Wr's that as backup WR's looked OK. And a new TE that may be a backup that didn't look bad either. It's very unlikely the Patriots will have to play a game with all those backup guys on the field at the same time. But if 1 or 2 have to play a lot due to injury with the real starters they should be fine. And I have seen other preseason games and the Bills didn't look very good either. I may watch the Raiders today and see what a really bad team looks like.

I would think it was obvious that I meant "after the catch...7-10 yards" :rolleyes: Actually, I didn't much care about the O scoring points as much as the OL pass/run blocking which didn't look good to me (tipped passes, hurried throws, no movement of the dline). I thought the WRs looked fine. I wish people would stop making excuses and address the issues. Is this how the Pats will look all year. Hopefully not but why pretend that they looked good or go off the deep end because someone says it? I don't get it.

I know we are in the vast minority, but I saw the game the same way you did with many of the same concerns/questions. Perhaps my expectations wee unrealistic because the team has been so hyped. I hope, therefore, that pre-season games are meaningless.

I think I also had unrealistic expectations based on the improved defense in the postseason (particularly the 1st half at Indy) but this game brought back images of last year. Breer had some good things to say though and that along with the fact that Warren and Seymour were out make me feel a little better.
 
By the way, how about we go back to the original title of this thread and see which group is being needlessly hysterical and which group is being tempered in their comments, even WITH their/our hyperoblic response to the breathless panic of 1996.

"Am I the only one who think the Pats looked terrible?"

Terrible. TERRIBLE. That is out and out, brain-dead, F-ing RIDICULOUS. You lose. We win. Nice try.

You need to work on your vocabulary. Asking a question isn't "being needlessly hysterical". A better illustration of hysteria can be found in any of your mildly amusing rants on this thread. Let me know when you have watched the game and can actually address the points I've raised.
 
I wish people would stop making excuses and address the issues. Is this how the Pats will look all year. Hopefully not but why pretend that they looked good or go off the deep end because someone says it? I don't get it.


So the O wasn't missing it's starting RB, probable 2 starting WR's and thier 3 top TE's? That's not an excuse. I don't know what you expected to see out there. A team in mid season form? The 1st PS game is a game to see as many players as possible to have tape for coaches to evaluate. It's not a game to try and go out and dominate so fans don't have the jitters. That the OL is trying a new blocking scheme isn't an excuse. They are. That the O didn't have it's best skill players isn't an excuse. They didn't.
 
So the O wasn't missing it's starting RB, probable 2 starting WR's and thier 3 top TE's? That's not an excuse. I don't know what you expected to see out there. A team in mid season form? The 1st PS game is a game to see as many players as possible to have tape for coaches to evaluate. It's not a game to try and go out and dominate so fans don't have the jitters. That the OL is trying a new blocking scheme isn't an excuse. They are. That the O didn't have it's best skill players isn't an excuse. They didn't.

The poster's crying over one set of downs. Do you really expect rational responses at this point?
 
Don't you guys GET IT?! The Patriots 1st stringers on D stunk - I mean, SURE, they forced two straight three and outs, but they were shoved around.
 
The fact that it's a preseason game makes winning/losing irrelevant but I thought the play of the Pats 1st team O/D was mediocre to terrible. The "backups" weren't any better. It reminded me of the Pats horrible play against average-good teams last year. The Dline got shoved around, the LBs as a group looked like crap and were always on the ground or behind the play and the best that can be said about the DBs is that they made the tackle...after the catch. The Oline still seems unable to pick up a blitz or keep Dlinemen from disrupting the play. Welker screwed up a blocking play causing the RB to get tackled early. Meriweather looks too small to be safety and whiffed badly on a tackle. The only bright spots I saw were Washington/Gaffney/Faulk. The rest of the team looked as slow and overmatched as they were last year against good teams. Please don't use the "it's only preseason" excuse because I've watched other preseason games and no team, not even those that lost, has looked as slow and overmatched as the Pats.

Taking your concerns at face value here goes:

"DLine shoved around" - do you have any evidence? there was one bad drive for the first team D out of maybe three, where they gave up 49 yards rushing. but there were two other drives where the 1st team D got a lot of pressure and broke up plays. That sounds like "some good, some bad" to me, not terrible, getting pushed around all night.

"LBs as a group looked like crap" - again 1st team LBs were unremarkable, but didn't get beat either. Second team guys (particularly inside) looked bad. The D opened the game with 2 three-and-outs. That was good. They were part of that one bad drive, too. That was bad. same as for the DL.

"DBs made the tackle after catch" - TB started the game 1 of 6 with two scrambles. Someone was covering on those first 8 downs. BTW if the DL and LB were getting pushed around and off the ball, did TB players just wait around for the DBs to come up and stop the play?

Bottom line they gave up 13 points total. Terrible is more like, oh maybe 38 points?

Now for the O:

"Missed blitzes" - one sack (Cassel), a few hurried (3 or 4 tops, the Cassel scrambles were due to coverage) one batted ball (which was a just a good DL play, what was he supposed to do, hold the DL from jumping? Brady might have stepped or lofted it differently). The O was no where near crisp, but hardly beaten and missing guys running free. Those missed blocks were on screen plays so maybe it just looked worse, since the play is designed to have DLs getting into the backfield.

Welker - had a couple bad plays to be sure, but was also wide open on a Brady overthrow that would have been good for 15+ yards. Good route running on that one.

Meriweather - played corner (or NB) almost the whole game. Don't remember seeing him much one way or another, which is generally a good thing for a DB.

"slow and overmatched" - generalization is hard to address, I'd ask "compared to what?" The play was generally pretty mediocre. On a hot humid day where you're trying to get the fundamentals down rather than "do whatever it takes to make a play" situation. Also, you would expect the Pats coaches to run the things they most needed to see the players doing, new techniques and things they needed the work on, in order to evaluate. Finally, most of the fast guys weren't there - Maroney, Moss, Stallworth, Watson. So a slow sluggish offense is what you would expect.

To me, it did look a lot like last year's team during their off game (a lot like the Jets home game). Good D (scoring wise), sluggish O. Of course, since none of the new additions were on the field, that's what you would expect. Also, since last year the Jets game was week 10 or something, I say not bad for week -4 to be already as good as they were last year with the same crew.

BTW, last years team was ALMOST good enough to win a SB. All the other contenders had and will have their own flaws. Also, I think many folks around here are spoiled by selective memory. We only remember teams like 04 and 03 making highlight plays. Go watch those games in full again, and you'd be surprised how uneven some of those games were (13-7 against the Jets in 04, 9-3 against a terrible Cleveland team in 03) and so on. This doesn't give them a pass for things the do wrong.

Right now, this kind of thing reminds me of my old college roommates who would start to pick apart pretty hot women because they were so used to the touched up photos and other fakery you see in magazine supermodels.
 
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So the O wasn't missing it's starting RB, probable 2 starting WR's and thier 3 top TE's? That's not an excuse. I don't know what you expected to see out there. A team in mid season form? The 1st PS game is a game to see as many players as possible to have tape for coaches to evaluate. It's not a game to try and go out and dominate so fans don't have the jitters. That the OL is trying a new blocking scheme isn't an excuse. They are. That the O didn't have it's best skill players isn't an excuse. They didn't.


The STARTING OL was on the field. The STARTING OL should be able to protect the QB. The STARTING OL should be able to create holes for ANY running back. The STARTING OL should be able to CREATE MOVEMENT on the opposing DL. That's what I expected to see out there.

I'll give you the new blocking scheme - hopefully that was it. As I stated previously, guess you missed that part, I don't care about points scored or wins or even the performance of the backups. What I care about is seeing improvements for the starting groups and I didn't see any. Perhaps I was wrong to expect the Pats starting units to look ready to play (kinda like other teams starting units appeared ready to play). :rolleyes: I apologise. I'm sure BB is quite okay with last night's performance too...what with the missing players, and new schemes. The team shall surely be rewarded with a day off. After all, it's utterly beyond belief to expect pro football players to to be able to rise to the challenge of playing with a new scheme and missing two receivers (who, by the way, weren't on the team last year).

Look, the fact is the Pats starting units didn't look good. Is there hope for improvement (i.e. the presence of Seymour/Warren, etc.) - yes. However, the Pats starting units also didn't look good last year against good teams WITH Seymour/Warren in the starting lineup. So don't ask me to stick my head in the sand with you and pretend that Seymour/Warren will be the certain fix when that wasn't the case last year. No one was missing from the starting LB group and they looked bad. Again, are improvements possible. Of course, but yesterday's game WASN'T a step in the right direction. Why is this so impossible to admit? One would swear some of you were punished as kids for being truthful.
 
Don't you guys GET IT?! The Patriots 1st stringers on D stunk - I mean, SURE, they forced two straight three and outs, but they were shoved around.

Thats what I thought as well.

In fact, when the Bucs finally moved the ball, the only D lineman starter in there was maybe Wilfork.

I know neither Seymour not Warren were in.

And Seymour wasn't in the game at all.

And we have seen the difference that Seymour by himself makes.

And essentially the only reason the Pats didn't score was because Brady overthrew a wide open Wes Welker. How often to you think Brady is going to miss that pass (gotta be specific now).

Look guys, I remember the 2004 team playing so bad in the preseason that BB pulled all the starters he was so pissed.

I could only listen to the broadcast. But from what I heard, the only time the D got presure on Brady was on the screen, where if I am not mistaken the point is to let the D get pressure.

And again, this was all without Moss, Stallworth, Watson, Maroney. And on D without Seymour and Warren (and Samual if you suspect he will be back by week one as I do)
 
Look, the fact is the Pats starting units didn't look good.

If that's your opinion, FINE. And if this thread were called "Am I the only one who thinks the Pats didn't look good," you might have more takers. But the premise of this thread is that the Patriots looked "TERRIBLE." They didn't. Nobody but you thinks they did. And because a lot of us considered that to be hyperbolic, bordering on hysteria, our posts mocked yours with a similarly inordinate degree of breathlessness. Can I make this any MORE clear?
 
The STARTING OL was on the field. The STARTING OL should be able to protect the QB. The STARTING OL should be able to create holes for ANY running back.

Check out Bert Beer's comments on this:
– Offensively, the transition to zone-based running game seems to be coming complete. If you see the way the linemen are aligned, backed off the line of scrimmage, that’s clear. By putting the linemen as deep as possible, space is created for them to move laterally along the line and get reads on who to block. Another upshot is that it helps in pass-blocking on run downs, and the Patriots were outstanding all the way around in protecting the quarterback last night. The difference in both areas is that group looks like it’s working real well together and that should show up with better production on zone runs and less hits levied on Tom Brady. If you want to take a look at the improvement in this area, go to a second-and-6 play on the Patriots’ second drive. It was a Boss play, a zone toss designed for the tailback to slash back against the grain with the defense influenced outside. Sammy Morris took the toss and took an awfully round cutback to 3 yards. With Laurence Maroney in there, it’ll be a different story. With how sharp the Patriots’ starter cuts, the defense would’ve had little time to react and, from the TV, it looked like he could’ve had 15 yards, minimum.

I guess he's just one of those homers yahoos who can't see what's right in front of his eyes. :rolleyes:
 
The STARTING OL was on the field. The STARTING OL should be able to protect the QB. The STARTING OL should be able to create holes for ANY running back. The STARTING OL should be able to CREATE MOVEMENT on the opposing DL. That's what I expected to see out there.

1.) THE STARTING OL isn't even known yet. You may not know this, but there is a competition going on for the right tackle spot.

2.) THE STARTING OL wasn't exactly giving up oodles of sacks

3.) THE STARTING OL was blocking for a new running back, since THE STARTING RB is still not taking contact for the Patriots.

4.) THE STARTING OL gave Brady plenty of time to miss a wide open Welker

5.) As has been noted, THE STARTING OL is using a blocking scheme that is not identical to last season, and this will likely tame time to adjust to.

6.) THE STARTING OL didn't have THE STARTING TE to smoothly integrate the scheme.


I'll give you the new blocking scheme - hopefully that was it. As I stated previously, guess you missed that part, I don't care about points scored or wins or even the performance of the backups. What I care about is seeing improvements for the starting groups and I didn't see any. Perhaps I was wrong to expect the Pats starting units to look ready to play (kinda like other teams starting units appeared ready to play). :rolleyes: I apologise. I'm sure BB is quite okay with last night's performance too...what with the missing players, and new schemes. The team shall surely be rewarded with a day off. After all, it's utterly beyond belief to expect pro football players to to be able to rise to the challenge of playing with a new scheme and missing two receivers (who, by the way, weren't on the team last year).

You can't figure out why a starting unit missing 2 of its top 3 receivers, its top 2 tight ends and its top running back might not look to be in midseason form? Also, what exactly was the level they were supposed to be improving FROM?

Look, the fact is the Pats starting units didn't look good. Is there hope for improvement (i.e. the presence of Seymour/Warren, etc.) - yes. However, the Pats starting units also didn't look good last year against good teams WITH Seymour/Warren in the starting lineup. So don't ask me to stick my head in the sand with you and pretend that Seymour/Warren will be the certain fix when that wasn't the case last year. No one was missing from the starting LB group and they looked bad. Again, are improvements possible. Of course, but yesterday's game WASN'T a step in the right direction. Why is this so impossible to admit? One would swear some of you were punished as kids for being truthful.

No, the fact is that the starting units looked fine given the circumstances. Your not "being truthful", you're being silly.
 
Taking your concerns at face value here goes:

"DLine shoved around" - do you have any evidence? there was one bad drive for the first team D out of maybe three, where they gave up 49 yards rushing. but there were two other drives where the 1st team D got a lot of pressure and broke up plays. That sounds like "some good, some bad" to me, not terrible, getting pushed around all night.

"LBs as a group looked like crap" - again 1st team LBs were unremarkable, but didn't get beat either. Second team guys (particularly inside) looked bad. The D opened the game with 2 three-and-outs. That was good. They were part of that one bad drive, too. That was bad. same as for the DL.

"DBs made the tackle after catch" - TB started the game 1 of 6 with two scrambles. Someone was covering on those first 8 downs. BTW if the DL and LB were getting pushed around and off the ball, did TB players just wait around for the DBs to come up and stop the play?

Bottom line they gave up 13 points total. Terrible is more like, oh maybe 38 points?

Now for the O:

"Missed blitzes" - one sack (Cassel), a few hurried (3 or 4 tops, the Cassel scrambles were due to coverage) one batted ball (which was a just a good DL play, what was he supposed to do, hold the DL from jumping? Brady might have stepped or lofted it differently). The O was no where near crisp, but hardly beaten and missing guys running free. Those missed blocks were on screen plays so maybe it just looked worse, since the play is designed to have DLs getting into the backfield.

Welker - had a couple bad plays to be sure, but was also wide open on a Brady overthrow that would have been good for 15+ yards. Good route running on that one.

Meriweather - played corner (or NB) almost the whole game. Don't remember seeing him much one way or another, which is generally a good thing for a DB.

"slow and overmatched" - generalization is hard to address, I'd ask "compared to what?" The play was generally pretty mediocre. On a hot humid day where you're trying to get the fundamentals down rather than "do whatever it takes to make a play" situation. Also, you would expect the Pats coaches to run the things they most needed to see the players doing, new techniques and things they needed the work on, in order to evaluate. Finally, most of the fast guys weren't there - Maroney, Moss, Stallworth, Watson. So a slow sluggish offense is what you would expect.

To me, it did look a lot like last year's team during their off game (a lot like the Jets home game). Good D (scoring wise), sluggish O. Of course, since none of the new additions were on the field, that's what you would expect. Also, since last year the Jets game was week 10 or something, I say not bad for week -4 to be already as good as they were last year with the same crew.

BTW, last years team was ALMOST good enough to win a SB. All the other contenders had and will have their own flaws. Also, I think many folks around here are spoiled by selective memory. We only remember teams like 04 and 03 making highlight plays. Go watch those games in full again, and you'd be surprised how uneven some of those games were (13-7 against the Jets in 04, 9-3 against a terrible Cleveland team in 03) and so on. This doesn't give them a pass for things the do wrong.

Right now, this kind of thing reminds me of my old college roommates who would start to pick apart pretty hot women because they were so used to the touched up photos and other fakery you see in magazine supermodels.

Ah...just as I was starting to despair that there were any sensible people left on the board tonight....


Good points. I thought the first drive defense would have been great except for couple missed tackles by Colvin (he missed at least one, believe it was him on the other) which brought back memories of last year with guys being in place to make the play but whiffing on tackles. It was really on Tampa's second drive that I thought the Dline was getting pushed around. On that drive and others, it seem liked the Dline/LBs were getting knocked on their butts or were chasing the play up the field. Again, brought back memories of last season. The DBs didn't seem that bad, and Gay looked good, but again, it's Tampa we played. Another reason for my concern.


OL looked pretty beaten to me for most plays. The play with the tipped pass was probably the best they did all night. Yeah, Brady should have thrown the ball higher, but shouldn't Matt have ridden the guy wider, out of the passing lane? No free runners at the QB but not much time for the QBs to set and throw either and the defense was getting through the line to get at the RB.

I used the phrase "slow and overmatched" because the Pats players, especially on D, always seemed to be on the ground, or chasing the play up the field. There was definitely no crispness their play. Faulk seemed like the only one who was up to speed.

I just don't want a repeat of last year's D play against good teams because the Pats don't have a bunch of patsies on the schedule this year. Hopefully BB will use this game to light a fire and there'll be actual improvements in the next game.
 
Check out Bert Beer's comments on this:


I guess he's just one of those homers yahoos who can't see what's right in front of his eyes. :rolleyes:

You should ask that question to the person who said Breer was a "homer yahoo".
 
From PFW:

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=27038&pcid=41


From BB, as reported by Reiss:

"As I said last night, I thought there were some good things in the game. There were some other things that we need to work on and that's evident.

From the Herald:

All in all, there was nothing to get overly excited about, and nothing to start panicking about, in the Pats’ 13-10 loss to Tampa Bay, in which Matt Bryant kicked a 32-yard field goal with three seconds left. It is the preseason, after all.


So, nobody seems to think they were terrible. Well, there's you, but that's about it.
 
Have you watched other preseason games and if you have, how would you honestly rank the play of the Pats against what you saw from other teams?

The missing Pats weren't part of the starting Oline, or LBs or DBs and I would hope a Dline missing one starter could look better than they looked against Tampa. I had hopes that the Pats would win a SB this season and I'm just surpised that anyone can look at how the Pats OL, DL, LB, DB played and not be concerned. Is there time for it to be improved? Of course and that's my hope. However, it's a little disconcerting to see that the same problems the Pats had last year still apparently haven't yet been fixed, particularly since they came against Tampa Bay, not San Diego.

The dline had Warren for two snaps. With Sey out, that was two starters out of three MIA. I thought the containment issue was more about the OLB's not sealing on the outside.

I thought the pats executed well at times on both sides of the ball. Did you see the Colts play? Did you think the champs played 'better' than the Pats did? I don't.

I thought the OL did well, at times very well. They seemed unprepared at first for the all out pressure the Bucs brought, especially on the first series, but who wouldn't be surprised? There used to be an unwritten rule about 'no blitzing, no stunting'. I bet BB knew it would happen.

The whole idea of the first game is to give the team a real opponent they're not too familiar with. In this case, the defense gave the ol a good workout after facing sa 3-4 for the most part so far, and it will help them get to game shape in body & mind that much quicker. Same will be true next week, as BB says, 'moving forward every days the goal'.

I thought the 2nd string and the rookies did well at times. Hard to tell how well they were doing without Maroney back there (yes a concern, but not for last night).

I liked the rookies performances for the most part. I think Cassel showed tremendous improvement, gute looked like he knew what was going on. Liked the way he delivered a strike while taking a big hit.

As others have said, BB is looking for certain things in these games. Remember the 2004 preseason? The team lost by horrific numbers to Cincy & Jags in particular, like 30-0 in both games. Think that was a product of the teams preparedness? I think it was a way for BB to give them a taste of what losing was like, since they hadn't lost a game in so long. Whatever the cause of such sorry games, they overcame it with another 14-2 run.
 
The STARTING OL was on the field. The STARTING OL should be able to protect the QB. The STARTING OL should be able to create holes for ANY running back. The STARTING OL should be able to CREATE MOVEMENT on the opposing DL.

There were no sacks. There will never be a game where Brady isn't hurried sometimes or hit after he throws. I didn't have a problem with how Morris and Faulk ran. There will never be a game where they get 4 yards or more each run. I didn't think they player great. But I find nothing to get hysterical about and have an EA moment. It was the 1st PS game. Maybe you think the season is lost because they can't get better. I don't know. I'm not in the group that feels all is wonderful and the SB is assured. There's things I'm not comfortable about. But the 1st PS game didn't convince me of much of anything one way or the other. Some good things some bad things. I would guess every team feels the same way about thier 1st PS game.
 
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