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Aliens (It's about time)

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    President Jug Ears Aunt Zucchini better stay out of Arizona.

    News Today:
    Arizona lawmakers on Tuesday passed one of the toughest pieces of immigration-enforcement legislation in the country, which would make it a violation of state law to be in the U.S. without proper documentation.

    It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal.
    Arizona Clears Strict Immigration Bill - WSJ.com
     
  2. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    Although it's probably a good idea... it does conjure up some images of roaming officers asking for people's papers... else...
     
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's one of those things "if your doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about"

    "amigo, do you have papers"
    "si"
    "have a nice day"
     
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They still have to go to Court.. so all that will happen is the detention of thousands of people that have to be fed and cared for, while their cases are heard.. it is that unintended consequences thing.. and another burden on the taxpayers...

    The price of landscaping, manual labor, day laborers and other shyt jobs will go up, as there will be less cheap labor..
     
  5. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Harry, if you're doing nothing wrong you shouldn't have to get stopped, pulled over and questioned to prove it just because you look Hispanic -or black - or Asian - or any other race which might not have been born in The USA.

    Would you want to get pulled over every time you left the house because us have red hair and freckles? Would you want to be terrified to leave the house to mow your lawn without making sure you had your driver's license and birth certificate with you just in case some cop saw you in the driveway and decided you looked like an illegal alien rather than a home owner who'd been born in the USA?

    I don't have a problem with some of what they're trying to do - but it does bother me that the police will no longer need a reason to question someone based on nothing more than the color of their skin or the slant of their eye.

    You, who respecst the right of the individual and the privacy of the home/car/property should have a problem with it, too.
     
  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I love how you liberals always whine about the price of "cheap labor" going up when we actually try to enforce our own immigration laws. The reason why illegals are so cheap is because people that hire illegals don't worry about thing like the minimum wage or mandatory benefits... in other words, people that hire illegals ignore the laws that YOU are always fighting to put in place. And then you complain when the "cheap labor" pool shrinks.

    Just another example of the idiocy that is liberalism.
     
  7. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I don't want to have to prove my citizenship every single time I do any of those things. But I do think it is perfectly fair to have to prove my citizenship when I attend a public school, get hired for a job or accept public benefits and/or free health care. Don't you think it is reasonable to require a citizenship verification when someone does those things?

    How anyone can oppose this is beyond me. Just people who truly enjoy weakening The United States.
     
  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    That's why people are opposing it, WP....for all the reasons you just stated in your first paragraph. Of coure it's reasonable to ask for proof of citizenship in all of the above cases, but it's not reasonable for the police to be able to stop anyone they want, any time they want and any where they want, and ask them to prove the same thing......which is what this particular bill is giving them the power to do.

    Fully 30% of Arizona's population is Hispanic. Blacks and Asians make up another 6.7%. There are another 2% who say they are of mixed race. It does not count people of mid eastern heritage. That's probably more than 40% of the state's entire legal population which is now subject to being stopped and questioned for no other reason then they are not blue-eyed blondes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2010
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm a "Red Head" if a family gets murdered and raped by a "Red Head" and a Cop stops me to question me I wlll know the Cops in my neighborhood are doing their jobs, I will "Thank The Cop" for stopping me.
     
  10. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I do not share your interpretation of the article or this law. First of all, you should realize that police already have the authority to detain people they suspect of breaking the law. For example, If you're swerving all over the road, a cop is going to pull you over to see if you are driving drunk. And guess what? If you're pulled over for suspicion of drunk driving, the burden of proof rests on you to prove you're sober. So is that a Gestapo-like infringement of our civil rights? Or is that just the reality of the way law enforcement operates?

    So if a policeman has probable cause to suspect an individual is in this country illegally, I have no problem granting them the authority to investigate further.
     
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Right - if a family gets murdered is key, Harry. That's called a reason. I'm talking about no reason - other than you're a red head.
     
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Personally, I LOVE when laws are enforced.
     
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    What part of this is one of us misinterpetrating?

    It would also grant police the power to stop and verify the immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal.

    And what would make the police man think he had "probable cause," WP? Other than the color of his skin, of course? The way he walks, the way he stops at a red light, the way he smiles or frowns, the way his hair is cut, the shortness of a woman's skirt or the way she wears her eyeliner?

    Who do police suspect of being in this country illegally? Who do we ALL suspect of being in this country illegally? Hispanics, of course - and maybe some black people and some Asians and some Middle-Eastern swarthy types. And everyone's probable cause of suspicion? The way they look. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, based on sentiment found here, we tend to automatically assume they are all here illegally, never mind most of them are either natural born citizens or are naturalized citizens or have valid green cards.

    The police have no way of telling those here legally from those who are here illegally - there's no magic "look," or special appearance. The only way to tell is to pull 'em all over and check 'em all - probably repeatedly since they all look alike, anyhow. That means all those legal people here, all those citizens just like us, who are guarenteed the same rights as "we" are - have just lost one of them.

    On the bright side, if we can take rights away from people who are in this country just as legally as we are, people who are entitled to the very same things we are entitled to based on the facat that they look like they MIGHT be doing something wrong - it won't be long before they can pull any one of over just because we might be doing something wrong, too - after all, we've opened the door and invited them in.
     
  14. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They have a REASON the reason is they are looking for criminals who broke America's Laws and entered this country ILLEGALLY.

    The reason is "Criminal Activity" it's against
    America's Laws to "sneak in"
     
  15. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Me, too. Most especially the ones about evading income taxes.
     
  16. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I think the part you're misinterpreting is that part about "anyone they suspect being illegal." Now you seem to think that means they will be arresting every single red-head mowing his lawn. But to me, suspecting someone of committing a crime involves having a reason or probable cause to investigate further.
    Gee, I dunno... maybe when a dozen day laborers are all hanging around the local Circle-K looking for some work... or when 10 guys walk into a bank and 1 of the guys cashes a check for $5,000 and starts distributing the money to the group... or a couple guys behaving in a suspicious manner. I know you won't believe me, but a lot of policework starts with just an experienced cop seeing someone behaving in a suspicious manner and doing a little investigating.
    That's where you're wrong. There is a profile. And while you liberals absolutely hate that word, the simple fact of the matter is that profiling is another valuable tool in policework.

    These sorts of things you oppose so much when it comes to illegals are the sorts of things that are already happening everyday in law enforcement. Cops looking into people behaving suspciously... profiling potential threats... detaining someone suspected of committing a crime and putting a certain burden on them to prove their innocence... If every crime was enforced the way you want this crime to be enforced, we would be living in a state of anarchy.
     
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Ok...and what's the profile for suspecting someone of nothing more than being in the country illegally? How do you tell them from the ones who are already citizens, who were born here, who have valid green cards? What's the "give-away?"

    The country was founded on the principal of everyone being presumed innocent until proven guilty, wasn't it? Now it's the other way around?

    I know what you're saying, WP. I really do. But how can you not at least admit that carte-blance approval to stop anyone who looks as though they might be committing the crime of being in the country illegally is not going to end up with at least the potential of thousands of innocent citizens being harrassed on a daily basis?

    I'm not talking about the 50 workers on the street corner (although we have those corners very near to where I live and the police sweep through daily and ask for ID - gathering in a crowd is illegal - loitering is illegal - you don't need any other reason to go through them asking for ID.) The new law in Arizona wasn't written to cover those situations you mention - those situations are already convered under other, existing laws - laws which don't require racial profiling.


    If someone walks into a bank and cashes a check for $5,000.00 it's goingto depend on what bank the check was drawn on. Most banks will not cash a check that large unless it comes from their own bank and they can verify the amount is present in the account. At that point many, if not most, banks will call the person or business which wrote the check and ask if it is kosher. If a bank teller believes there is something suspicious going on, that bank teller is going to call her manager and they are probably going to either not cash the check or they are going to call the police anyhow - regardless of the race of the people trying to cash the check. Arizona doesn't need a law to question people trying to cash a check in a bank that are acting strangely - the bank can request it and I'm sure they'll follow up on it.

    As for people "behaving suspiciously," police already have the right to stop them and ask for ID or to question what they're doing. Arizona doesn't need a special law for people "acting suspiciously."

    All of the things you mention are valid things, WP. But they're all covered under existing laws. This law says, specifically, that anyone who simply looks like they might be in the country illegally (and nothing more - just the way they look) can now be stopped and checked.

    It's like saying the police can stop every driver they see and make them take a sobriety check - not because they smelled like alcohol,, not because they were weaving, bobbing, stumbling, yelling or driving erratically, not because they tossed a beer bottle out the car window, not because they were speeding, driving too slow or sitting in the middle of the road, not because they blew a stop sign or a red light but because they might be drunk - since many people drink at one time or another it's perfectly rational to believe that any one of them could be drunk at any given time - just like it's become perfectly rational to think that because some Hispanics are here illegally they all are - better check - better pass a law that makes it ok to stop someone for the crime of looking like someone who could be guilty.
     
  18. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    The idea of randomly stopping people to ask for papers is done in other places around the world. Moscow is full of cops who walk around and say "yest dokumenti?" all day. Of course, let's not get into the fact that this kind of power in the hands of the police is sure to be abused, as it is in Moscow. You literally have to set aside a bribe fund when you go over there just to get your papers back from some of the more corrupt cops.

    I am opposed to any sort of amnesty or leniency for illegal immigrants, but I'm more in favor of enforcing existing laws than making new ones.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2010
  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    You already asked me that question and I responded with several examples. And that was just me thinking off the top of my head; I am sure a trained, experienced law enforcement officer would be able to come up with many more.
    I think you need a good, solid dose of the real world. Yes, in a court of law, the accused is given the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But believe you me when I say that that is not how policework operates. When investigating a crime (or a suspected criminal), policemen do not walk in giving everyone the presumption of innocence.
    An unfortunately reality of law enforcement is that the police cannot magically detect criminals like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable. We as a society believe that it is a fair and reasonable price to pay to allow law enforcement some latitude to do their duty. It's what makes us all safe.
    I don't think you understood what I was getting at. I wasn't talking about a forged check or anything like that. I was talking about a payroll check where some contractor gives one huge check on a regular basis to the one legal citizen, who then distributes it to the 12 illegals who also did work. The bank knows the check is legit and they aren't going to call the police even though it is obvious that the money is going to illegals.
    Apparently you've never heard of sobriety checkpoints because the very thing you just described above already exists. It's happened to me once late one night. It was a 2 lane road (not a highway) and the police were stopping and checking every single car that drove through it. I wasn't speeding or doing anything remotely unsafe. And when it happened to me, I didn't call the ACLU to whine about my rights being violated. I saw it as being worth 6 or 7 minutes of my time to make the roads safer for us all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2010
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Right....the key word being "every single car that drove through it." Not just the brown cars - or not just the black cars or not just the yellow cars. "Every single car" is quite a bit different that "every single red car," isn't it?

    When they start stopping blue eyed blondes, red headed Irishmen, white men in wife-beater tee-shirts and teenagers without tattoos and eye piercings and checking their ID then I'll have no problem with it.
     

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