Alfonzo Dennard

[ATippett56]

Of course we all want to see Dennard pass Moore, that's a no-brainer.

As of today, the right cornerback position is unsettled.

We need better play from our safeties; but also our CB's. I am hoping that Dennard was able to get his feet wet and be a good addition to this secondary.

With regard to the safety position, it is what it is. Hopefully, Tavon Wilson will improve as the season progresses.

For a back end of the roster guy, Moore isn't any different from any other player around the NFL. Every year we seem to have too many Antwaan Moldens, or James Ihedigbos, so I'm not sure why anyone would be getting on someone who has already proven himself as an upgrade?

I don't consider Moore as a starter whether at the cornerback position or safety.

As far as your "playmaking ability" question, maybe you should go back to the last 4 or 5 games of the season to try and refresh your memory. FYI--Moore led the team in passes defended with TEN, (in the last 5 games), had 2 INT's, a TD return from an INT, a timely strip of the Evans pass to clinch the AFC Championship, and a forced fumble in the Super Bowl which should have stopped the NYG's first touchtown drive inside the 5 yard line.

Last season is last season, I'm talking about this season. The NFL also stands for Not For Long.

So far this year we've seen him do a very good job on Larry Fitzgerald (with the right safety help), and he has 1 forced fumble and 1 recovered fumble. That's not too bad of an 8 game stretch right there, especially when compared to many of our other backup players in the secondary of the past.

One forced fumble after he was torched by Thomas. Moore got a little fortunate on the play.

Unfortunately, he isn't a starting caliber CB who should be covering the other teams' 6'4" #1 wide receiver either. I'll even take it one step further and say that he shouldn't be man-to-man on much of anyone and is MUCH better suited to be playing zone.

If Moore can't handle 6'-4" wide receivers, how the hell as a safety is he going to handle 6'-4" plus tight ends?

That said, he did a pretty decent job on Larry Fitzgerald with proper safety help. I have to assume that was probably the plan in this game too, at least to some extent. Moore is what he is, but I think the safeties are letting us down too. Let's remember that we had a rookie starting his first game ever...and Patrick Chung offering help on Demarius Thomas. I hardly doubt that Belichick felt that Moore could keep up with Thomas without proper safety help. Hopefully we won't need that if Dennard can take over the role more.

The last three games seems more like reversion to the mean.

I still personally think that Moore would be better suited for a role playing safety, in the Brandon McGowan mold where he comes in to help cover specialized assignments like the TE's over the middle etc. Even if that isn't the case, I still think he's better suited to be a rotational safety.

If Moore can't handle 6'-4" wide receivers, how the hell as a safety is he going to handle 6'-4" plus tight ends?

In an absolute worst-case scenario he can earn his roster spot #50/51/52/53 by being a backup CB. I certainly did not expect him to be starting, let alone trying to cover other teams' #1's.

Moore is a backup cornerback not safety.

 

[Marqui]

If Moore can't handle 6'-4" wide receivers, how the hell as a safety is he going to handle 6'-4" plus tight ends?

Because they're slower?

 

[gomezcat]

Here is Jerod Mayo's explanation

Chalk Talk: down field coverage

Nice explanation. Thanks for posting.

 

[jmt57]

Karen Guregian lobbying for Dennard to get more playing time:

Alfonzo Dennard earns chance - BostonHerald.com

On Sunday, the Pats will face rookie Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson, who Dennard played against in college. Wilson’s Wisconsin Badgers blew out Nebraska, 48-17, in a battle of unbeaten teams last season.

It’s a good time to insert Dennard and see how much more competitive he can be. It also will allow him to get more comfortable playing against a team that struggles offensively.

Given the Pats were able to essentially steal him later in the draft because of an off-field incident — Dennard still has his court case pending from allegedly taking a poke at a police officer — why not find out what he can do? Play him for even more than half the snaps.​

 

[mgteich]

I don't think any of the side issues matter. What matters is who gives us the best chance to win this week.

The open questions are
1) Who is the best choice for starting corners?
2) Who is the best choice for nickel?
3) Who is the best choice for dime back?
4) Who is the best choice for starting safeties?
5) Who should be playing only special teams this week?
1a - 4a) Who is the best choice for backups at each of these positions?

IMO, the answers are
1) McCourty and Arrington
2) Dennard
3) Dowling
4) Chung and Wilson
5) Cole and Ebner
1a - 4a) Moore, Moore, Moore, and Moore

Karen Guregian lobbying for Dennard to get more playing time:

Alfonzo Dennard earns chance - BostonHerald.com

On Sunday, the Pats will face rookie Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson, who Dennard played against in college. Wilson’s Wisconsin Badgers blew out Nebraska, 48-17, in a battle of unbeaten teams last season.

It’s a good time to insert Dennard and see how much more competitive he can be. It also will allow him to get more comfortable playing against a team that struggles offensively.

Given the Pats were able to essentially steal him later in the draft because of an off-field incident — Dennard still has his court case pending from allegedly taking a poke at a police officer — why not find out what he can do? Play him for even more than half the snaps.​

 

[Metaphors]

I
1a - 4a) Who is the best choice for backups at each of these positions?

1a - 4a) Moore, Moore, Moore, and Moore

DJ?
Roger?
Demi?
Mary Tyler?

 

[supafly]

Because they're slower?

My thoughts exactly. The comparison to a 6'4" WR and a 6'4" TE is about as relevant as a comparison to a 6'4" WR and a 6'4" DE....

We all saw Brandon McGowan do a pretty decent job in a more specialized role against TE's. While some would agree that Moore is better suited for safety, others may not, but let's not bring out the WR vs TE debate. Moore's physicality and tendancy to make a big play in the turnover game would likely help him as a safety, even if it's with lessened snaps in a rotational role.

Putting Moore up against the other teams #1 WR is not a good matchup, and that's why I think it's an obvious assumption that better safety help was expected. It worked out perfectly against Larry Fitzgerald. When the safety play wasn't quite helping as much, Belichick recognized Moore's inability to be able to hang one-on-one with Demarius Thomas and put in a better option in A.Dennard.

To suggest Belichick would be that obviously dumb, to try and purposely match him up against Thomas all by himself, after seeing Moore in practice on a daily basis is borderline absurd. Safety help was expected.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I don't think any of the side issues matter. What matters is who gives us the best chance to win this week.

The open questions are
1) Who is the best choice for starting corners?
2) Who is the best choice for nickel?
3) Who is the best choice for dime back?
4) Who is the best choice for starting safeties?
5) Who should be playing only special teams this week?
1a - 4a) Who is the best choice for backups at each of these positions?

IMO, the answers are
1) McCourty and Arrington
2) Dennard
3) Dowling
4) Chung and Wilson
5) Cole and Ebner
1a - 4a) Moore, Moore, Moore, and Moore

I know we've only seen one quarter of a 7th round rookie CB play, but 1 may (hopefully) end up being Mccourty and Dennard.

 

[supafly]

Last season is last season, I'm talking about this season. The NFL also stands for Not For Long.

I just gave you statistics in his last 8 games, which are decent when considering the fact that he's a back end of the roster guy. You can choose to say that "it wasn't this specific season," and I respect that.

His work on Fitzgerald (with safety help, which is likely the gameplan and WHY he is out there in the first place) speaks for itself, as does the fact that he had a forced fumble and a fumble recovery. That, along with some of his examples of getting the ball back for our offense are the examples that you wanted.

We're only 1/4 of the way done with the season. If you're trying to tell me that you expected more from a backup, end of the roster player, then you'd be lying. The fact that he's starting is due to the reason that Belichick felt that was best for the team, and I am sure that Belichick is aware of his obvious lack of speed in coverage.

Now that Dennard may be ready, we shouldn't have to see nearly as much of him, but your propensity to cut/bench TEAM roster guys like Donald Thomas, Sterling Moore, Marcus Cannon, Shane Vereen, Julian Edelman etc shows that you are not being patient enough. These are guys who contribute in depth, rotation, practice preparation, special teams, and who are cheap and cost effective.

 

[Deus Irae]

Are the "Moore to safety" people forgetting just how bad he was at it last year, or are they thinking he's somehow improved by a factor of about 1 million?

 

[supafly]

I know we've only seen one quarter of a 7th round rookie CB play, but 1 may (hopefully) end up being Mccourty and Dennard.

They may be. Now that he's got his feet wet a bit it will be up to him to show the coach his talent.

If he rises to the occasion, then I would expect you to possibly be right. That would give us a much more formidable group at CB than what is there right now. It would also move Arrington to the slot, where many feel he is better suited. It's up in the air whether or not BB agrees with Arrington in the slot, and that's due to the fact that Dowling never payed off + lack of a better option currently. If Dennard is able to gain a starting outside role, then we may very well see Arrington in the slot full time.

One thing to remember (not that you are suggesting anything, b/c you aren't) when people get frustrated at the CB play is that scheme, game situation, technique, personal assignments, and help from other members of the secondary are all variables that will contribute to whether or not someone looks "better" or "worse" than they may be.

I keep trying to consider all of those with DMcC, and I think he has improved. The DPI and lack of turning for the ball seem to be an obvious point of frustration though, so hopefully that improves as the season goes on.

 

[supafly]

Are the "Moore to safety" people forgetting just how bad he was at it last year, or are they thinking he's somehow improved by a factor of about 1 million?

No, but there are some things to consider like the fact that it was his first and second games in the defensive system. Better knowledge of the scheme and system may provide a better result.

I would also not fully agree that he was 'that bad' as the defense stepped up as a whole and really took off at that point. He may have been green, but there is a potential debate that his skillset, physicality, and tendancy to get the ball to our offense would suit him better. In my opinion, it is often hard to properly judge a rookie in their first or second game.

There's also the fact that he could be used in more of a specialized role, with limited reps in a big nickle situation too.

He's actually fine where he is, given the proper safety play and the fact that he will need help against the other teams' WR1. We've certainly seen worse. I don't want to see him one-on-one too much, but there are ways to help that, and one would have to assume that was the plan.

A more likely scenario is that there were not any better options there, and Dennard may be able to provide that now. That is what I am guessing. Either that, or Belichick wanted to mask his lack of speed and coverage ability with safety help, but I doubt that Belichick expected him to stay one-on-one with other teams' WR1 like DeSean Jackson or Demarius Thomas.

If anything, he still provides a good backup role and ST presence for a back end of the roster guy, and those are things that Belichick values.

 

[ATippett56]

I just gave you statistics in his last 8 games, which are decent when considering the fact that he's a back end of the roster guy. You can choose to say that "it wasn't this specific season," and I respect that.

There has been nothing special about Sterling Moore's play this season.

His work on Fitzgerald (with safety help, which is likely the gameplan and WHY he is out there in the first place) speaks for itself, as does the fact that he had a forced fumble and a fumble recovery. That, along with some of his examples of getting the ball back for our offense are the examples that you wanted.

Sterling Moore gets burned by Demaryius Thomas but blame it on the New England Patriots safeties. Gotcha!

We're only 1/4 of the way done with the season. If you're trying to tell me that you expected more from a backup, end of the roster player, then you'd be lying. The fact that he's starting is due to the reason that Belichick felt that was best for the team, and I am sure that Belichick is aware of his obvious lack of speed in coverage.

I am expecting some semblance of improvement in the New England Patriots pass defense this season.

Now that Dennard may be ready, we shouldn't have to see nearly as much of him, but your propensity to cut/bench TEAM roster guys like Donald Thomas, Sterling Moore, Marcus Cannon, Shane Vereen, Julian Edelman etc shows that you are not being patient enough. These are guys who contribute in depth, rotation, practice preparation, special teams, and who are cheap and cost effective.

Show me one post where I stated to cut Marcus Cannon, Shane Vereen, or Julian Edelman.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Dennard may "hopefully" "end up" being a starting corner for us. For this game, I think nickel would have him on the field at least half of the defensive reps. For me, that is plenty at this point.

I know we've only seen one quarter of a 7th round rookie CB play, but 1 may (hopefully) end up being Mccourty and Dennard.

 

[supafly]

Sterling Moore gets burned by Demaryius Thomas but blame it on the New England Patriots safeties. Gotcha!

That isn't even close to what I am saying.

I am saying that Belichick knows that Moore lacks proper speed and one-on-one coverage ability, and it worked just fine when he shut down Larry Fitzgerald to ONE catch with proper safety help.

I seriously doubt that Belichick would be 1/2 as stupid as expecting Moore to be able to run with Demarius Thomas' size and speed by himself.

As you saw with Fitzgerald, it can work with the proper safety play.

 

[supafly]

Yes, Dennard may "hopefully" "end up" being a starting corner for us. For this game, I think nickel would have him on the field at least half of the defensive reps. For me, that is plenty at this point.

And just like many other young CB's in the Belichick era, we will likely see Dennard's responsibilities and assignments continue to progress as long as he looks viable out there.

 

[ATippett56]

Now that Dennard may be ready, we shouldn't have to see nearly as much of him, but your propensity to cut/bench TEAM roster guys like Donald Thomas, Sterling Moore, Marcus Cannon, Shane Vereen, Julian Edelman etc shows that you are not being patient enough. These are guys who contribute in depth, rotation, practice preparation, special teams, and who are cheap and cost effective.

By the way, I already have Sterling Moore earmarked for the 2013 New England Patriots roster:

Defensive Tackle: Wilfork, Love, Deaderick
Defensive End: Jones, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Francis, Bequette
Linebacker: Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Fletcher (RFA), Koutouvides, White
Cornerback: McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Moore (ERFA), Cole
Safety: Wilson, Ebner

Special Teams Core: Koutouvides, White, Cole, Ebner

 

[supafly]

By the way, I already have Sterling Moore earmarked for the 2013 New England Patriots roster:

Defensive Tackle: Wilfork, Love, Deaderick
Defensive End: Jones, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Francis, Bequette
Linebacker: Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Fletcher (RFA), Koutouvides, White
Cornerback: McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Moore (ERFA), Cole
Safety: Wilson, Ebner

Special Teams Core: Koutouvides, White, Cole, Ebner

I think either you may have mistaken my comments, or I may have just not communicated them very well. It was not that I was calling you out. I was in the camp that did not like what we were seeing out of Thomas and Cannon too..many were. I think it's something of a lesson to be learned, myself obviously included.

There is definitely something to be said of the back end roster guys though, whether that be special teams, backups, role players, or whatever. In the Belichick era, we have seen the term "team" used more than ever, and will continue to do so.

Practice preparation, role bits in limited reps, rotational players, guys who block like Slater did in the goal line formation, Connelly as a FB, Mallet emulating Manning in practice, Edelman emulating opposing players in practice or stepping up for 3 way roles, etc. Everyone has an opportunity to contribute as a "team" here.

It's something for everyone to keep in mind when they see a play or specific player whom they don't like or care for--as you never know when they may contribute. This is also a reminder for myself included.

As for the underdog players like Edelman and Moore with limited skillset but positive contributions as back end players....yes, I took a liking to those kinds of guys as it was obvious to me that they were "Belichick" kind of players. Just through the first couple of games this year alone we saw Edelman contribute more than anyone thought he would, we saw him see the field more than anyone thought he would, and we saw glimpses of a potential future here down the line.

Moore, even with his obvious weakness with speed and one-on-one coverage, did a very good job (with help admittedly, of course) shutting down one of the NFL's top WR's in Larry Fitzgerald. To me, that is a very positive role playing contribution. We see him on kickoff returns/ST roles. That is another. He has one turnover forced and recovered so far, and potential for several more. To me, those are all positive role playing contributions from our back end players.

No, he should not be starting, although I still stand by the fact that with the proper scheming of additional coverage/safety responsibilities, Belichick may feel that he can learn to see more live reps and earn more of a chance to see the field; all while hiding his more obvious weakness(es). The same would go for Edelman. He's someone who contributes in more ways than we likely ever know, practice prep, ST's, potential CB play in an injury situation, etc. I do not want him starting of course, but so many people forget that you can contribute more than what we see on gameday that I couldn't help but "root" for the 2 guys that so many wanted to cut.

 

[supafly]

By the way, I already have Sterling Moore earmarked for the 2013 New England Patriots roster:

Defensive Tackle: Wilfork, Love, Deaderick
Defensive End: Jones, Ninkovich, Cunningham, Francis, Bequette
Linebacker: Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Fletcher (RFA), Koutouvides, White
Cornerback: McCourty, Dowling, Dennard, Moore (ERFA), Cole
Safety: Wilson, Ebner

Special Teams Core: Koutouvides, White, Cole, Ebner

Nice job with the projections for next year.

I also imagine that we'll see additional draft pick potential in a position or two, along with the usual FA pickup and other team's castoffs.

Either way, it's a very nice core group, with potential for additional talent in a few spots.

I like it's too early in the season to tell one way or another on Moore, but I did feel as though he earned an additional look here this year. The future will obviously be up to him and his play. I personally would not have necessarily included him in next yr's projections myself, but he will be one of many to keep an eye on. It will be an "on the fence" year for him regarding any future here, at least in my opinion.

 

[ATippett56]

Nice job with the projections for next year.

I also imagine that we'll see additional draft pick potential in a position or two, along with the usual FA pickup and other team's castoffs.

Either way, it's a very nice core group, with potential for additional talent in a few spots.

I filled out the remainder of the roster on defense with my latest mock draft.

Revised Quarterly Report 2013 Mock Draft:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...46-ye-olde-2013-mock-draft-thread-page16.html

Post #158