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Al-Awlaki Killing and Water Boarding

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Well I am curious here about the targeted killing of an American opinion vs and/or compared to water Boarding opinion.

    To clarify here I am not trying to start a fight and I hope one does not ensue. I have little problem with water boarding and no problem at all with the targeted killing of the American Al-Awlaki.

    I also realize that both are wrong under our laws - well just because we have laws does not mean we need to agree with them. We must respect them as Americans but disagreeing with things is a separate category. I also realize both are very dangerous territory as we should never give up our rights as Americans. But I digress ............

    So to those here who had a mjor problem with water boarding ... what is your opinion of the Al-Awlaki killing - persecution without trial?

    Just curious and please be civil - please no trolling. :halo:
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am concerned that he was an American Citizen, but otoh how would he have been brought to justice??? Not sure I go as far as Ron Paul on this matter, but we do not know if every avenue was explored to bring him to justice.

    The whole waterboarding thing did nothing in terms of intelligence, but it seems as though some got their pound of flesh.

    This is one of those things need to ponder a whole lot more, there are no good answers.. my concern is that through the use of drones is the continued desensitization towards violence in this area in general.

    Your hope for no trolling will be quickly ignored, the rats will soon be here.
     
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the killing still has to be justified. I read somewhere that we were prepared to send in Marines. Why didn't we? Wouldn't it have been better to capture the guy? I think it's possible to justify the killing if it can be shown that Al-Awlaki wielded considerable power and could not have realistically been captured. But, I don't think the Obama administration has made a strong enough case yet. (I hope they do.) Waterboarding is harder to justify especially because many experts, including the FBI, said that torture extracts bad info and is not as effective as other means.
     
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It's kind of 1984 Big Brother scary. Let's make no secret about it - word was Clinton and the Bush's routinely carried out assassinations though unsure if any were Americans. What's the difference between an American casualty and a target American killed - the difference is the knowledge of the weapon only and those who ordered it and carried it out.

    If Americans are okay with this perhaps it spreads because we all know political liability is important to them. No way Obama can water board after Bush did it - the political liability is to great there so that is over.

    Anyways my opinion is this American had it coming but it still scares the bajesus out of me - not that i would ever be targeted.
     
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    Obama took a huge risk here ... this will be interesting.

    Beyond my opinion I have little to say legally - out of my pay grade.

    This killing will give rise to the libertarians for sure - and rightfully so as it needs to be discussed nationally.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  6. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    The one thing people often seem to ignore when talking about waterboarding, torture, etc., versus drones and other killings, is that in the case of the former the individuals are no longer a threat.

    There's a difference b/t how we treat somebody who is at large and potentially dangerous and how we treat somebody who has been captured.

    That doesn't mean waterboarding can't be used or that killing an individual with a drone is necessarily ok or not ok) -- but it's the honest starting point.
     
  7. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The water board person at least gets to say their peace. The person killed is gone by intelligence information. Not saying he is innocent but hey we invaded a country and killed thousands of innocent people based on bad intelligence. Our country's record of acting on good intelligence is spotty at best. This killing is the beginning of a new level - like Darryl says as they desensitize us to things it makes it all more acceptable. Why don't we have more say in our democracy about what our country does in the name of national security.

    BTW did you see how many IED's are manufactured in pakistan? The country we give billions to aids in the killing of Americans. Our government is already desensitized to the killing of our citizens - they allow it don't they?
     
  8. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I agree -- I'm just referring to the disingenuous comparisons many people (not saying you) on the topic. If you can't even agree on some basics, a conversation about if / when each is appropriate wouldn't seem to have much likelihood of getting anywhere.
     
  9. STFarmy

    STFarmy In the Starting Line-Up

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    To be honest, I am very uncomfortable with the Al-Awlaki assassination. Yes, he was essentially aiding an enemy in wartime. But that's treason, and he's an American citizen - for that he gets a trial at least. If he was killed while exchanging fire with our troops or something, I'd be fine with it. But he wasn't. He was killed by a predator drone specifically meant to kill him. It's an assassination of an American citizen, and it sets a dangerous precedent IMO.

    The Sixth Amendment doesn't have any "unless he's distributing enemy propaganda" clauses. Do I mourn the guy? No. Is the world better off without him? Yep. But I cannot condone the action. It give the executive branch power it is not suppose to unilaterally have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  10. DarrylS

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    You are close to where I am, however how would you extract this dude from Yemen??? Not sure it could be done that easily..

    I can see both sides, and am uncomfortable with both of them..
     
  11. STFarmy

    STFarmy In the Starting Line-Up

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    I hear you, I can understand the justification for killing him. It's a tough one, but I have to stay consistent with my beliefs. I would say that you don't extract him then... if you can't do it lawfully, don't do it. There would be some point at which he could be arrested and extracted. But the man is a citizen and deserves a trial.

    It's a tough one, like I said, and I don't blame people for disagreeing with me. This is just my take.
     
  12. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    What else could you do if more and more and more lives are lost because of him with no end in sight?
     
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    My view is that if you can't extract him w/reasonable efforts, and he's a threat to kill others, he's comparable to a criminal with a gun -- you want to take him peacefully and give him a trial, but if you can't do so, the solution may be a bullet to his head. (I realize he may not be as immediate a threat as the guy with a gun and a hostage, but that's how I view it ethically.)

    if, otoh, he's simply an anti-American agitator but not really a threat to kill anybody, then I don't think the killing is justified.
     
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now Ron Paul wants to start impeachment proceedings over this.. this political world is becoming more and more mondo bizarro...
     

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