Adam Schefter on WEEI

[Michigan Dave]

Nothing. Unlike you, I'm high on life.




Barber, just to deal with your first "no", is definitely a better cornerback than Samuel. Barber is a 4 time pro bowler who made 100 tackles last season. Take off the homer glasses, they just make you look silly.

So because either A) Barber's front 7 was worse than Samuel's forcing him to make more tackles in the secondary or B) Barber allowed more balls to be caught and therefore had to take his man down more often, you claim him to be a better corner? Any DB coach in the nation will laugh at tackles being a statistic used to measure a corner's performance.

 

[Dirtywater]

I am surprised that a lot of people here rate Asante in the top 5 for his position in the NFL. Did he have a very good season last year? Sure did. Has he proven that he can play at last years level on a consistent basis? No.

I feel he has a lot of potential, and he sure has an upside due to his age, but I just don't feel comfortable giving a guy who has had one very good season Clements type of money. I would rather aim for a FA CB who has proven more to give that money to.

In addition, with the amount of injuries we've had in the DB department, and the amount of decent play we have received from guys plugged in back there, I don't feel maxing out money on that position is wise, and apparently the Pats feel the same way.

I admit, I was very happily surprised by Asante's play last season, but at no point did I feel he was an elite CB. I realize he got 10 INT's, but I need to see that type of play on a more consistent basis to think he is due for that each season. Baily has shown me that you can expect it from him. Not Asante. That said, he did play very well for us and I can't deny that.

 

[JoeSixPat]

But that's not it.

He gets $7.8 mil for one year and then is a free agent, still young and still sought after for a big contract. As a free agent next year, he'd surely get at least $15 mil guaranteed.

Isn't $23 mil guaranteed over two years better than getting $17 mil guaranteed over two years?

The only way he wouldn't get a big contract as a free agent next year is if it turns out he is a one-year wonder after all. If he believed that about himself, then yeah, he should go for the $17 mil this year. But if he thinks he is an eliete player, he can bank $8 mil this year and $15-20 mil guaranteed next year.

$17 million over two years - guranteed over two years - is a pretty good starting point for negotiations and probably isn't that far off the signing bonus -especially since that's exactly what he could be looking at.

Asante's leverage? Take $0 million over 2 years and refuse to play.

Given his tatoo I think he would prefer to take the money.

 

[Deus Irae]

Thank goodness you're not the Patriots' GM. Gambling on his future is one thing, but making claims like this about his present? Come on....

Please refute what I said. You made a generalization, I backed it up with fact from his performances that I watched. I've also watched significant reps of the other players you named. If you want to claim something contrary to my opinion, I'm all for that, however please back it up with something other than rhetoric.

You didn't say anything except that you thought Samuel was top 5 followed by a bunch of opinion. You're entitled to speak as you wish, but let's not pretend that you said anything but your opinion. Barber, for example, is a 4 time pro bowler who had 100 tackles last season, and is considered by many to be the best tackling cornerback in the league, yet you and Mr. Bauer conveniently overlook him on your 'top 5' lists. Samuel, on the other hand, was not his team's clear #1 cornerback coming off of last season. In fact, if I recall properly (and I may not, it's been that kind of day), it was Hobbs matched up against Buffalo's #1 receiver, Lee Evans, in the first matchup between the two teams last season.

I'm not saying that Samuel is a bad player. I'm simply saying that he's not a top 5 CB.

 

[wdkantro2]

To all the Asante supporters....How many of those corners that you are saying are worse than him can defend the double move better? Probably all of them. Asante is great at gambling for an INT, and it worked for him more this year than in the past. He still misses tackles, and if you double move him, it's almost an automatic deep completion.

Depending on the structure of the contract, I think the one Schefter reported is completely fair. What's the difference between making $10 guaranteed and $15 guaranteed?

If I were the Pats, I would offer him the same contract, but put some incentives in that, if reached, would label him a "top corner," and the salary would go up accordingly.

 

[JackBauer]

I admit, I was very happily surprised by Asante's play last season, but at no point did I feel he was an elite CB. I realize he got 10 INT's, but I need to see that type of play on a more consistent basis to think he is due for that each season. Baily has shown me that you can expect it from him. Not Asante. That said, he did play very well for us and I can't deny that.

So you don't think giving up the second fewest yards per reception qualifies as elite?

Interesting.

You know, back in the day, Bailey used to be quite inconsistent as well. It usually takes a couple of seasons to reach the elite plateau at CB; Bailey used to get torched by Amani Toomer and he's now the best in the NFL. Imagine that.

To all the Asante supporters....How many of those corners that you are saying are worse than him can defend the double move better? Probably all of them. Asante is great at gambling for an INT, and it worked for him more this year than in the past. He still misses tackles, and if you double move him, it's almost an automatic deep completion.

Oh really? So why is more teams didn't capitalize on this alleged weakness? If it were so easy, as you say, you'd think Asante would've given more deep receptions last year -- but he didn't. In fact, Samuel rarely gets taken deep, and when he does he's usually in position but he gets outmuscled for the ball (think deep pass to Berrian last year).

 

[Deus Irae]

So because either A) Barber's front 7 was worse than Samuel's forcing him to make more tackles in the secondary or B) Barber allowed more balls to be caught and therefore had to take his man down more often, you claim him to be a better corner? Any DB coach in the nation will laugh at tackles being a statistic used to measure a corner's performance.

No, because he's a multi-time Pro Bowl cornerback who's been known as a great tackler for a long time. And if you think that BB doesn't consider tackling an important part of the job description for his cornerbacks, let me just say that I respectfully disagree.

 

[JackBauer]

Samuel, on the other hand, was not his team's clear #1 cornerback coming off of last season.

Coming off or coming into? Samuel is CLEARLY the #1 CB due to his impressive play during what could be deemed his breakout season.

I like Hobbs, but Samuel is better and at this point it's not even that close.

I'm simply saying that he's not a top 5 CB.

And I would strongly disagree.

 

[Pat_Nasty]

Barber, just to deal with your first "no", is definitely a better cornerback than Samuel. Barber is a 4 time pro bowler who made 100 tackles last season. Take off the homer glasses, they just make you look silly.

Comparing Barber to Samuel is a bit like comparing Richard Seymour to Dwight Freeney -- sure, they both nominally play the same position, but since they play in such different schemes, they're asked to do much different things. While a lot of teams use the Tampa-2, nobody runs a more pure version of it than Tampa Bay. The difference between Tampa-2 CBs and ours isn't quite as stark as the difference between a 3-4 DE and a Tampa-2 DE, but but it still makes comparisons difficult.

Tampa Bay almost always has two safeties deep, and seldom blitzes. Barber is almost always patrolling the same short outside fifth of the field, attempting to funnel his receiver inside toward the safeties. He is almost never asked to turn and run or lock up with a guy in man, and almost always has a safety behind him. The Patriots like to cheat a safety up to the LOS, and thus Samuel is often asked to play a deeper zone.

In conclusion: wanna know what makes someone look silly? Acting really confident about an opinion while simultaneously demonstrating a fairly blunt understanding of the subject.

 

[Deus Irae]

Comparing Barber to Samuel is a bit like comparing Richard Seymour to Dwight Freeney -- sure, they both nominally play the same position, but since they play in such different schemes, they're asked to do much different things. While a lot of teams use the Tampa-2, nobody runs a more pure version of it than Tampa Bay. The difference between Tampa-2 CBs and ours isn't quite as stark as the difference between a 3-4 DE and a Tampa-2 DE, but but it still makes comparisons difficult.

Tampa Bay almost always has two safeties deep, and seldom blitzes. Barber is almost always patrolling the same short outside fifth of the field, attempting to funnel his receiver inside toward the safeties. He is almost never asked to turn and run or lock up with a guy in man, and almost always has a safety behind him. The Patriots like to cheat a safety up to the LOS, and thus Samuel is often asked to play a deeper zone.

In conclusion: wanna know what makes someone look silly? Acting really confident about an opinion while simultaneously demonstrating a fairly blunt understanding of the subject.

And yet, the NFL players and coaches all seem to agree that Barber is a good enough CB to make 4 Pro Bowls. Wanna know what makes someone look silly? Arguing against the weight of the evidence and acting as if you've done something impressive when you haven't. But, clearly, I don't have to tell you that.

 

[dhamz]

I think Samuel is in that group of top corners after Champ Bailey. He's a guy who can be considered a #1 CB and he is just reaching his prime.

Top 5, top 10, etc - that is all just a matter of perspective and is pretty volatile from year to year because so much of a CB success depends on the rest of the D doing its job. Two years ago, Samuel struggled and Deangelo Hall had a good year. Last year Samuel was great and Hall struggled. Both guys are still #1 caliber CBs.

 

[Michigan Dave]

You didn't say anything except that you thought Samuel was top 5 followed by a bunch of opinion. You're entitled to speak as you wish, but let's not pretend that you said anything but your opinion. Barber, for example, is a 4 time pro bowler who had 100 tackles last season, and is considered by many to be the best tackling cornerback in the league, yet you and Mr. Bauer conveniently overlook him on your 'top 5' lists. Samuel, on the other hand, was not his team's clear #1 cornerback coming off of last season. In fact, if I recall properly (and I may not, it's been that kind of day), it was Hobbs matched up against Buffalo's #1 receiver, Lee Evans, in the first matchup between the two teams last season.

I'm not saying that Samuel is a bad player. I'm simply saying that he's not a top 5 CB.

No. I gave you a reason for why I feel Samuel is top 5. Go back and read my post. You provided tackling statistics to back up why Samuel is somehow a worse corner. Anyone who knows anything about the game of football knows that tackling is a statistic that is very misleading for a corner. A lot of factors have to come into play for a corner to make a tackle. Furthermore, what I am looking for in a corner is strong coverage ability (by your logic, Barber is a better CB than Deion Sanders ever was). Asante has proven to me that he's one of the best in the league, in my mind behind only Bailey, in coverage. He's also young, and improving.

Also, do you think Hobbs was on Evans because the Pats regarded him as the "#1 CB?" I'm curious to hear this.

 

[Michigan Dave]

And yet, the NFL players and coaches all seem to agree that Barber is a good enough CB to make 4 Pro Bowls. Wanna know what makes someone look silly? Arguing against the weight of the evidence and acting as if you've done something impressive when you haven't. But, clearly, I don't have to tell you that.

So since he made Pro Bowls, he's a better player? Interesting. If Deion Sanders came back to the NFL, again, today, would you argue that he's a better corner? Deion made 8 Pro Bowls, you know.

I'm not knocking Barber- I've always liked him as a player. But I'd take Samuel in a heartbeat today.

 

[Oswlek]

I think Samuel is in that group of top corners after Champ Bailey. He's a guy who can be considered a #1 CB and he is just reaching his prime.

Top 5, top 10, etc - that is all just a matter of perspective and is pretty volatile from year to year because so much of a CB success depends on the rest of the D doing its job. Two years ago, Samuel struggled and Deangelo Hall had a good year. Last year Samuel was great and Hall struggled. Both guys are still #1 caliber CBs.

Hall has never been all that good and Samuel was never anywhere near as bad as people made him out to be. I ralied against the "he is just a nickleback" crowd the entire time.

Samuel is certainly one of the best 10 CBs in the league, has improved every single year and is young enough to think that improvement is still forthcoming. I will be more disappointed if NE moves him than I ever was regarding Branch.

 

[Pat_Nasty]

And yet, the NFL players and coaches all seem to agree that Barber is a good enough CB to make 4 Pro Bowls. Wanna know what makes someone look silly? Arguing against the weight of the evidence and acting as if you've done something impressive when you haven't. But, clearly, I don't have to tell you that.

Try working on reading comprehension. Please tell me where I said there was anything wrong with Barber having made 4 pro bowls?

My point is that you can't really compare the two players because they're asked to do such different things, not that Samuel was better or that Barber didn't earn those pro bowls. Barber is a great cover-2 corner, and while comparing a cover-2 corner in as pure a scheme as Tampa Bay's to other corners isn't exactly apples to oranges, it's certainly along the lines of granny smith apples to macintoshes.

 

[MrTibbs]

He is reporting the Pats offered Asante Samuel a contract worth approximately $6mil/year. Additionally he doesn't believe the Skins are interested in a trade for the CB.

Wow.......thats a lot of cash but the key is how much is sure money?

 

[zippo59]

I love Samuel and I really hope he sticks around. As of now he is definitely a top 10 CB and I would have no problem putting him among the top five if he has another year like he did last year.

 

[Deus Irae]

So since he made Pro Bowls, he's a better player? Interesting. If Deion Sanders came back to the NFL, again, today, would you argue that he's a better corner? Deion made 8 Pro Bowls, you know.

I'm not knocking Barber- I've always liked him as a player. But I'd take Samuel in a heartbeat today.

And you'd be right to take Samuel over Deion and wrong to take Samuel over Barber if it was based upon the right now, as opposed to the future. The point about Barber still racking up the tackles was merely to show that he's still playing his game at a high level. The reality is that Samuel is a contract year 'stud' as of this moment. Barber's been doing it for a lot longer.

Look, you and I both know that "who's better" is, realistically, a matter of opinion at the NFL level, unless you're comparing the very top with the very bottom. However, to me, the fact that I can easily come up with more than 15 corners who are arguably as good as Samuel tells me that he's not a top 5 CB.

 

[Deus Irae]

Try working on reading comprehension. Please tell me where I said there was anything wrong with Barber having made 4 pro bowls?

My point is that you can't really compare the two players because they're asked to do such different things, not that Samuel was better or that Barber didn't earn those pro bowls. Barber is a great cover-2 corner, and while comparing a cover-2 corner in as pure a scheme as Tampa Bay's to other corners isn't exactly apples to oranges, it's certainly along the lines of granny smith apples to macintoshes.

And my response was that the league's coaches and players, along with the fans have determined that Barber is an elite (read: pro bowl) cornerback on 4 separate occasions. If you have an argument with the comparison, go complain to the people who set up the "franchise" system which inherently leads to such comparisons, and to the people here who started calling Samuel a top 5 cornerback prior to my first post on the thread.

 

[NE_PATS_FAN_54]

here are some of Shefter's quotes:
NFL Network's Adam Shefter commenting on the Asante Samuel situation
When asked how much Asante was offered by New England:

"It's about 6 million dollars a year, in the general vicinity of 6 million a year" .

When asked what the patriots would be asking for:

"New England is holding firm on their demand of two number one draft picks"
"Lets be honest, nobody in the league is trading two number one picks for Asante Samuel"

When asked if the Washington Redskins would be interested:

"No, the Washington Redskins are not interested."

When asked what type of guarenteed money the pats offered:

"Big guarenteed money, but not the type of guarenteed money that Adalius Thomas got, or other elite cornerbacks got."

"Its just business, New England is doing their business, Asante is doing his business."

"It could changed, there is that much time....... He is absolutly pondering the possibility of sitting out. does that mean training camp? I dont think he knows."

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