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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turk, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2006/07/867-lessons-to-canada-which-country.html



    867) Lessons to Canada: Which country helped most when Canadians tried to
    rescue people from Lebanon?

    Answer: Turkey
    With Cyprus filled up, Canada urgently asked for Turkey's help. The Turks, whom
    the Harper government just gratuitously insulted while playing domestic
    politics, could have made up all kinds of excuses by way of payback.
    Instead, the Turks turned the other cheek. They took out Lebanese-Canadian
    citizens, rented boats, and put their airfield at our disposal. Have they
    received an official thank you from Prime Minister Stephen Harper?
    It's the least Mr. Harper could do after making recognition of the 90-year-old
    Armenian "genocide" official government policy such a sore point in Turkey that
    the Turkish government withdrew its ambassador to Canada to protest. . .
    The Harper announcement, delivered almost flippantly in April, made headlines in
    Turkey. Everybody close to the file knew the announcement had everything to do
    with ethnic pandering in Canada, part of the Conservative's wider campaign to
    play ethnic politics.
    Now that the Conservatives have been in office for a little while, perhaps they
    will realize that a country's foreign policy interests should not be
    subordinated to domestic pandering. They might also realize that a foreign
    policy based on realism requires remembering which countries are allies and
    friends, because you never know when friends might come in handy.
    As a NATO partner, Turkey is now being asked to contribute to a peacekeeping
    force in southern Lebanon, a force Canada is not being asked to join (except by
    some people in Canada) for the good reason that this force needs to be robust.
    Canada does not have robust forces to spare, what with the two-year commitment
    to Afghanistan, a point those urging Canadian participation might remember. The
    Turks (who were in Afghanistan before us) and others will have to do the heavy
    lifting if NATO agrees to inject a force into Lebanon . . .
    The Globe and Mail, Canada July 25, 2006
    By Jeffrey Simpson
     
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Isn't it silly that there's even a debate or comment about a genocide or war or both that happenned a hundred years ago? How dare a Canadian PM say anything like that after what happened to the Native North Americans at the hands of the Europeans? Why are Turks and Armenians so obsessed over this issue today? At least they have their own nations.
     
  3. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Hate (and what it leads to) is good business, WPF.
    That is why the Armenian diaspora is trying the Turks in the political arena, threatening with their voting power, nevermind that a crime like genocide has to be recognized by an international court of law and this one never has.
     
  4. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    You are rferring to the actions of Canadian-Armenians? Which crime are you citing when you say "this one"? What exactly is the threat you mention? I'm not clear on your statement.
     
  5. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Well, I'm guessing you're neither Turk nor Armenian...
     
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    No, but I am American, and I've forgiven the Japanese, Germans, and Italians. And I'm pretty sure they've forgiven us. What's your point? Do you think the Turks and Armenians should be holding a grudge for and event that occurred 100 years ago? Don't you think it's a little much?
     
  7. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Well then you're a bigger man than I am. I can forgive the Japanese, Germans and Italians as a people but I have no forgiveness for the the butchers of the holocaust. Should the Jews just forgive the Nazis now that we are 60 years removed from WW2..?
    My point (which I thought was obvious but I apologize if I overestimated your intelligence) is that it is easier as someone on the outside to sit back and say "Why can't you guys just get along?" But if you are a member of an ethnicity that feels you have suffered hundreds of years of rape, oppression and murder at the hands of the other, maybe you might understand how those things can carry forward to the present day.
    I don't think it's my place to tell people whether or not to hold a grudge over historical injustices that have occured to their people.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2005
  8. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Sorry.
    I was referring to the genocide claim that the Armenian diaspora has been pressuring the legislators into signing into law, here in the US as well as Canada and Europe.
    Genocide is a crime that has to be recognized by an international court of law, by definition. This claim by the Armenian diaspora has not been decided by any court of law and has been rejected by the UN.
    As a matter of fact, the 146 Turkish officers who were tried after First World War, while their country was invaded by England, by an Armenian judge were all found not guilty of these crimes, in Malta.
    So, the Armenians conveniently take their claim to the political arena and pressure their local candidates into signing this claim into law, with their votes, when no such verdict has been decided upon by the appropriate body, anywhere in the world.
    Since Turks do not have voters in such numbers, they lose, plain and simple lobby games.
    Turkey has been asking for a joint team of scholars and legislators from both countries to study the archives which are open to public, in Turkey. The Armenians, while their archives are not open, reject this invitation and claim that the decision and verdict are already in and that there is no need for research or debate.
    The threat I mentioned is simply how the Armenian diaspora attempts to influence the decision making bodies with their votes. You don't use the word genocide, you don't get the Armenian vote, plain and simple. Nevermind the fact that it is not up to a local legislator in Wisconsin or Utah or Maine to make such decisions about events that happened 100 years ago in a corner of the world that most of them cannot even point to on a map.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2006
  9. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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  10. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Gee, did you get appointed moderator sometime in the past week and I missed it...? How come you never talk about "lowering the bar" when I am the recipient of venom and insults magnitudes worse than what I just wrote...?

    Given the level of venom and hatred that's been thrown at me from various parts in this forum, my responses are ridiculously mild.
     
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Turk, I take it you're Turkish. I don't know enough about the Armenian claims, but I have always assumed there's some truth to them from the little I do know. That said, every country has its dark side, and it's often an aspect of nation building. If you are from Turkey, don't you think you might actually be biased on this issue, just as an Armenian might? What matters today is that the truth, whatever it is come out. Otherwise the hatred will live on much longer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2005
  12. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Yes Patters, I am a Turkish American.
    That is why I have had exposure to this matter.
    What you have innocently written in your post holds true for most Americans, unfortunately. Most folks assume that there is some truth to the accusations especially since there has been virtually no rebuttal. What most people do not know though is that the experts like Justin McCarthy, Bernard Shaw, Sam Weems, and so many more have had their careers, livelihoods, families threatened just for their favorable opinion of Turks on this matter.
    PBS executives got fired last year, just for allowing an open table discussion after the showing of a movie in which Turks were accused of these crimes. They had simply arranged for 2 experts from both sides to have a 30 minute discussion after the movie, that was their crime.
    Nevermind that this is America and that we are an open society where discussion is welcomed.
    Nevermind that the Armenian terrorist group ASALA has assasinated Turkish diplomats all over the world, one of whom was my uncle.
    The fact that Turks are terrible lobbyists and negotiators has not helped, either, but the fact remains. If someone were to commit a crime against you, you would go and seek the assistance of the police and the legal system, and not your politician. Why is it that the victims of this terrible crime have not taken the Turkish government to court?
    Why have they chosen the back door?
    What does a state legislator in UT know about this subject matter, except for the fact that if he does not vote for the recognition of this genocide, he can kiss the Armenian vote good-bye?
    That is how they slide these accusations into being laws, first in small localities and then now at the National level.
    What kind of arrogance does it take for the French government to pass a law saying that this genocide against the Armenians has taken place and that making a public comment to the contrary is an offense punishable by law, but when it comes to the Algerian claims that the French have committed a genocide there, the official comment is that evaluation of history should be left to historians?
    How French it is throwing blame around arrogantly and recklessly while accepting none!
    Double standards? Yes, I would say so.
    One set for the Judo-Christians of the world and another for everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2006
  13. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    OK, thank you Dr. Goebbels. I suppose the Holocaust never happened either...?
     
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Turk, from the wikipedia article, my sense is that there's a broad consensus on many of the facts, but the dispute is whether it constitutes genocide. It is worth noting that some Turkish historians believe it does:

    "Some Turkish intellectuals also support the genocide thesis despite opposition from Turkish nationalists; these include Ragip Zarakolu, Ali Ertem, Taner Akçam, Halil Berktay, Fatma Muge Gocek or Fikret Adanir.

    "The reasons why some Turkish intellectuals accept theses of genocide are threefold.

    "First, they cite the fact that the organization members were criminals, and that those criminals were specifically sent to escort the Armenians. This is regarded as sufficient evidence of the government's criminal intent. Second, the fact that Armenians living outside the war zone were also removed, contradicts the thesis of military necessity put forward by the Ottoman government. Thirdly, it is argued that the thesis of simple relocation is flawed due to the absence of the preparations which resettlement would require. This lack of provision by the authorities has been read as evidence of the government's intent to eliminate the displaced Armenians."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

    By the way, I think Turkey is a great role model for the Muslim Middle East. I like that Turkish leaders restrain fundamentalism, which is a scourge wherever it raises its ugly head.

    As for a double standard, I think France has no motive but political posturing. Perhaps it's a way of pressuring the Turks into some kind of deal, or getting favorable trade deals from Armenians. I think every country plays this kind of game.
     
  15. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    You are insisting upon lowering the bar at this and every other discussion, for whatever reason.
    I will simply not follow suit.
    The Holocaust which is possibly the darkest chapter of history, has happened and we have had discussions about that subject matter right here, in the past.
    There is a movie by the name of "Desperate Hours", directed and produced by Victoria Barrett. It is a MainStreet production, in association with the Berrenbaum group and Shenandoah films.
    I would recommend that anyone interested in that dark period, watch it. It tells the story of the Holocaust, Turkish diplomats putting their own lives at risk in France and Greece, rescuing Jews and how the Yishuv used Turkey as a base to rescue Jews. Turks and Jews have had a remarkable relationship all through history, including days of the Spanish genocide of the Jews, when it was the Ottoman Emperor who sent his fleet to rescue them. You may want to ask any Sephardic Jew about Turks, or you may wish to continue with your current attitude and keep slinging mud, it is your choice.

    By the way, Jews did take the Germans to court and it was upon the efforts of a Polish Jew who happened to be an attorney who had lost his family during those dark days. He was the reason why the UN recognized this act of genocide as a crime against humanity and drew a consise description of it.
     
  16. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I am aware of the scholars that you mentioned Patters. There area also scholars like Taschi who happens to be an Armenian, that support the Turkish view. So, crossing over holds true for both sides.
    Obviously this is a deeply serious and historical issue and if you are interested in futher research, here is a link you may find interesting:
    http://tallarmeniantale.com/
    Or you may want to read Guenther Lewy's extensive research on the subject matter.
     
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Jedi Knight Boy,
    Do you need one of us to call you a cab. I think you've had enough to drink, tonight.

    Where did you get the quote, "Why can't you guys just get along?" Did you hear someone in your brain say it or are you being a drame queen and embelishing what other posters say to drift the meaning into something worse so you can easily attack it without diong any hard work?

    For your information, My father and all four grandparents are from Ireland. They always spoke of the horrible treatment and attempts at genocide at the hands of the British pigs of the time of the occupation of Ireland. Does that mean I should be on a mission to extract an apology from the government of Great Britain? My parents harbored no ill to the Brits and neither do I. Time passes and people change. Holding on to generations of anger and resentment is one of the things that causes wars and cycles of violence.

    This is not necessarily for you, sci-fi geek, but for others who might have the brains to understand it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2005
  18. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Now let see the alter ego?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkWvddcvwzs&mode=related&search=#
     
  19. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Oh, I didn't mean for it to be a diret quote; rather a paraphrase of what you said (and here's the direct quote): "Do you think the Turks and Armenians should be holding a grudge for and event that occurred 100 years ago? Don't you think it's a little much?" Translation: Why can't you two just all hold hands and get along..?

    See, here's the point you're missing: Whether or not you hold any grudges against anyone is up to you. I would never presume to tell you what you should or shouldn't still be angry about after-the fact. I don't know your personal history, I don't know your family's history, and I don't know your personal feelings on the matter... so I would never ever presume to say to you "Gee, you really should forgive all those people and get along with all of them and get over it."
    Ah, yes... there is no surer sign of someone's defeat than when they have to resort to phrases like "sci-fi geek". Translation: Qui-Gon is absolutely right but you can't say anything intelligent in response beyond "Do you need one of us to call you a cab" or "This is not necessarily for you, sci-fi geek."

    By the way, where this board's newest moderator, Turk...? Turk, is "sci-fi geek" considered lowering the bar...? Are you going to call Wistah out or are you just a complete hypocrite...?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2006
  20. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I am not a mod here, just a fellow poster who is passionate enough about this forum to wish to keep the discussions at a mature level, that is all.

    I would like to remind you that when I did point out to your lowering of the bar, your response was just what it was, further lowering of it. So at this point, if someone you have already attacked is attacking back (which is fair game from your political perspective) you really have no right to complain.

    Having said that, I do ask again of you, of WPF and everyone else, including myself, that we all refrain from this type of activity, it does nothing but damage our credibility and this board that we care enough to post on.
     

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