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Abortion

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    3 to be 4 wrote in the Who are we? sticky, "And if you are a Christian, find me in the Word where abortion is justified."* Intrigued, I did a search to find out what the Bible actually says about abortion, and came across this piece that provides a fairly objective overview of the abortion issue (and is posted on a site called Christian Bible Reference Site, which I know nothing about).

    http://www.twopaths.com/faq_abortion.htm

    * 3 to be 4, from the link, "Surprisingly, abortion is never mentioned in the Bible."
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I don't give a crap what's in the bible, ripping a baby apart limb by limb is wrong. Pro Choice - how about the babies' choice to not be ripped apart in what should be the safest place in the world; it's mother's womb.
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The way to get rid of abortion is to provide better care for pregnant women, more time off for new mothers (most developed countries give paid time off for new mothers), better medical and mental health care, etc. Passing a law to prevent abortion in the best case would result in thousands of unwanted, hungry, desperate kids, many belonging to very troubled parents. Your way is a sort of bargain morality in that it costs you absolutely nothing, but it also solves nothing (except perhaps a way of being moral and selfish at the same time?).
  4. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    what a ridiculous, black and white, outlook. that to be Pro-Life means you dont want to provide better care for pregnant women, that you dont want to give time off for new mothers, that you dont want have better mental health and better medical care, that you dont want to support adoption.
    And before you get on the political manta against conservatives, that is two ENTIRELY different subjects. You dont have to be Conservative and Pro-Life.
    I agree the conservatives need to do more on the issues you listed.
    And liberals need to get out of their denial what abortion is.
    Exactly why does Planned Parenthood not allow their patients to view the ultrasound? Why does planned parenthood not talk to the woman about the adoption option?

    btw, that link you posted actually provided verses that support the idea of Pro-Life. the commentary provides some pretty twisted conclusions.

    finally, as Belichickfan said, take out the "intellectualism" of all this and just use some common sense. Do we really need third trimester abortions?
    have you seen an ultrasound? Do you think a 6 or 7 month old in the womb is just a mass of tissue?
    i guess if a parent wants it its a child. if they dont its a "fetus".
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's not what I said. I was referring specifically to BF, who is generally opposed to such programs, as are many anti-abortion conservatives (including those in D.C., who generally oppose social welfare programs), but not all.

    I think liberals understand what abortion is. There are some things, like war, care for the terminally ill, and even the death penalty, where right and wrong aren't so black an white. Abortion is like that, too. There are times when a woman is in so much anguish that abortion is an important option. It's not a nice option, but life doesn't always give us pleasant choices.

    Did you read it? I posted it because I thought it was fairly balanced and interesting. I'm an atheist, so I don't care what the Bible says, but it is interesting to see how the Bible intersects both sides of the debate, and to read that the Bible doesn't actually mention abortion.

    Ultimately, I rely on science to answer these questions for me, but would probably consider restricting abortion in exchange for legislation that provided better care for pregnant women, and young mothers and their kids.
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Adoption. Not killing.

    All that other stuff is crap. I'm pro-choice - I believe in the choice of the mother to get pregnant. She could use birth control. She could not have sex. Her choice. But it shouldn't be her choice to kill.

    Paid time off for mothers ? What happens after the 3 or 6 months ? Does she get to kill the baby then. Liberal psuedo spread the blame solutions as always.
  7. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ironically the countries with all the programs you advocate have the highest abortion rates and the lowest birth rates. AO I think this approach is bull.

    The poorest children in any given society are those in households without a father present. 2 parent families given the best prospect for children to wanted and fed.
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Now, now, let's not blame the families . . . it's society's fault. The U.S. sucks, remember ? :bricks:
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's not true, at least for the developed countries:

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo_percap-health-abortions-per-capita

    So, I guess it proves my point that good social services help reduce abortions. Or do you have another set of statistics that you're using?
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course we can blame the families, but what good will that do? Other than make you feel good.
  11. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    What good will the ***** ass coddling that you suggest do ? If they're going to be crappy parents there's nothing we can do but killing the babies isn't the answer. Easy adoption with the birth mother giving up all legal rights is.
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are many foster kids waiting to be adopted, so apparently adoption is not a solution.

    Also, helping people help themselves is not coddling. Taking care of children from troubled homes is not coddling. Are you serious?
  13. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    A lot of people are scared to adopt with the birth mother still having rights if she changes her mind.

    Not sure I get what you're saying.

    Regardless there's one failsafe way to not have this problem and a few almost failsafe ones. But killing babies isn't a good solution.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I truly don't think that's the main issue. The main issue is that many of these kids are troubled, and the financial incentives with foster kids makes it feasible for some people.

    And, how can call it coddling to help a terribly troubled, scared person deal with an unwanted pregnancy. I thought that was rather heartless of you.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Frankly I was looking at the birth rates of the native populations in Europe which are well below replacement level in most of these countries.
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have adopted 2 children both overseas in part due to the issue of the biological parents rights. My wife was an adopted child and was very disturbed by this.
  17. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    You know, I'm pro-life. I think abortion is murder. I wouldn't bomb a clinic, or not vote for a pro-choice candidate though. I see the validity in cases of rape, incest, medical emergency, etc.. That aside, I find the abortion on demand crowd truly baffling. As BF says, adoption is a far better path to travel.
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now, now, you're all doing your best to avoid the one proposal that would reduce abortion: help pregnant women, new mothers, and kids, like they do in many European countries where they have fewer abortions. Of course, that conflict with your, ahem, frugality, but being moral isn't always cheap. Sometimes the best way to be moral is to help others, even if that means providing more social services.
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    How long are you planning on helping them ? The problem is crappy mothers with no husband popping them out. 3 months or 6 months or 12 months of assistance won't help. Unless you plan to raise their kids until they're 18.

    We should just buy them a vibrator instead, there is a cause and effect in getting pregnant you know.
  20. patsfan13

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    The European are disappearing as a result of their reproductive rates, Why would anyone want to follow their example are they move towards extinction?
  21. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    Hey, id take that deal in a minute! We may be in agreement on something.
  22. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They're not disappearing. A quick read says that they may face problems in a few decades, if the decline doesn't reverse, but meanwhile countries like France and Ireland are apparently doing okay:

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7334/385/a?ck=nck

    And, I read somewhere that Eastern European countries started to show their decline after government subsidies for parents with kids ended with the fall of Communism.

    Lastly, I thought your concern was that abortion is murder, so I responded by showing that the Europeans actually have fewer abortions than we do. Now you're saying your real concern is fear of extinction? And you're opposed to an approach that reduces the number of abortions! C'mon patsfan13, you can do better than that. Why not just say, you're against abortion, but when push comes to shove you like money better.
  23. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not ready to propose details, but certainly daycare, therapy, medical care, and workfare would be part of the approach. In Sweden, new parents get 6 months off in total (which can be divided any way -- e.g., mom off 4 months, dad off 2 months; both parents off 3 months at the same time, etc.) It seems to help.

    Well, finally a social welfare program your advocating. I suppose that's a start.
  24. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    again, why not BOTH. this is the trouble i have with liberals and conservatives.

    increase adoption awareness, increase care and support, challenge people to do more individually to help the less fortunate, educate people on their options and responsibilities and ALSO add some resonable restrictions to abortions the same way liberals want to add resonable limits on gun ownership.

    conservatives need to put up or shut up ( btw, the religious institutions DO, in fact, participate in finding ways to help, contrary to the propaganda from the left. Many, many churches fund programs which offer housing, food, and countless other ways to help young mothers get through their pregnancy and beyond as long as they agree to carry the baby to term, so lets be careful not to always link "conservative" with "religious institutions")
    liberals need to stop being so unwilling to be open to any limits. The left has had its way 100% on this issue for 35 years. When the genral public is asked if they would favor some limits on abortion a vast majority say yes, btw.

    Patters, I give you credit for saying earlier that you would exchange limits for more funding to help the poor. THAT is what im talking about!

    however, that openess has been rare in the Democratic Party. And the Republicans have blown it on the funding.

    there is plenty of blame to go around. Now this country need to move on with a common sense approach.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2007
  25. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe in a woman's right to choose. I don't think abortion should be illegal.

    So far so good.

    Ultimately, if a woman is adamant about it, she should be allowed to have an abortion, but I do think the number of abortions would drop if women knew their "unwanted" child would be wanted and if women were given the help they need to get through a pregnancy.

    I think the left is well aware that even conservative churches run charitable programs, but many of these churches also spend an inordinate amount of money and energy fighting against the rights of gays, for the war, for the teaching of Creationism as science, and so on.

    I think it's difficult negotiating away a right, but if a conservative religious group were to propose a social welfare program to help kids and mothers, I think many liberals would listen.

    Yes, I know we've sort of agreed there, but I think you've assumed that I labeled all anti-abortion people as right-wing conservatives, and that's not true. I have known anti-abortion liberals.

    Well, it's all politics. If a conservative church reached out to the Democrats, I bet they would listen, but many of these churches seem to think government spending is as bad a sin as abortion.

    The leadership on this issue will come from a constituency, not from a Party.
  26. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Even the "high birthrate" cited in the article is below the replacement rate. In the other EU countries the situation is much worse. The birthrates were declining in the Soviet block before the fal of the iron curtain. try googling the population projections for Russia and China sometime (and Japan for that matter) they are looking at a demographic disaster.:(
  27. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    i agree. Its about a change of common sense and a change of heart, not following party lines.
  28. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot Rookie

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    I'm pro choice but generally oppose late term abortions. I don't think it's the role of the govt. to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

    What baffles me are some catholics and evangelical christians oppose abortion, but also oppose making contraception available not only to minors but to adults as well. This is a moronic viewpoint and flies in the face of modern realities.

    I do respect the viewpoint of pro lifers as long as they're not blowing up clinics, assasinating doctors or terrorizing those who make the choice to have an abortion. Their concerns are valid. Ideally, people would choose adoption over abortion which is why I think state's need to loosen up their laws regarding adoption.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2007
  29. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    And I thought Patters went off the deep end with the stereotyping.:rolleyes:

    ok, I'll try not to blow up a clinic today or assassinate a doctor.

    I cant speak for Catholics, although i think its pretty safe to add them to this as well, but I havent met one Evangelical Christian who is marching outside of CVS protesting the sale of Trojans.

    lets not exaggerate, label, or make up stuff about people in the absense of a reasonable point to make, shall we?

    I do agree wholeheartedly about your adoption point, however.

    adoption should advocated as much as any social awareness campaign thats out there.
  30. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    That's always one of my guiding principles. I guess you just forgot to retract this little doozy of a statement below or you're about to get around to it?

    What you're describing there is a crime in all 50 states, DC, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, heck its a serious felony almost everywhere in the world and nobody but the wackiest of wack jobs wants to change that. Roe vs Wade limited Abortion on demand to the first trimester. At seven months all 50 states agree that viability has been reached and that Abortion is only an option if the fetus is so seriously mal-developed as to be essentially dead or if continuing the pregnancy is a clear and present danger to the life of the mother. Being 'a little depressed' isn't even close to meeting that standard.

    Its impossible to have a sensible debate on this topic exactly because people like you can't seem to stop themselves from 'exaggerating' 'labeling' and 'making up stuff about the other side.'

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