A WWII Vet Defends The Wall!

[archstanton543]

That's a principle that rises well above the NFL/NFLPA CBA - it's in the Constitution

It's equal protection under the law. No laws were broken here. CBA's don't have to be fair and can only be illegal if the penalties agreed to include things like killing you for screwing up or something like that.

Basically, if the NFLPA agreed to let the Comish arbitrate his own rulings they have no one to blame for their crappy work arrangement but themselves.

 

[DaBruinz]

Even in an arbitration proceeding, you're entitled to something vaguely resembling due process (at least that was my understanding until the CA2 decision ). The problem is we have c*cked up SC precedent in MLB v. Garvey that is muddles the issue. Apparently, Chin and Parker felt that based on this case "anything goes" when it comes to arbitration.

MLB V Garvey had NOTHING to do with the situation.

 

[DaBruinz]

It's equal protection under the law. No laws were broken here. CBA's don't have to be fair and can only be illegal if the penalties agreed to include things like killing you for screwing up or something like that.

Basically, if the NFLPA agreed to let the Comish arbitrate his own rulings they have no one to blame for their crappy work arrangement but themselves.

Article 46 has been in the CBA since day 1. And, until Goodell, no Commissioner artbitrated their own judgement. Not Tagliabue. Not Rozelle. In fact, it's pretty much standard to NOT do such a thing because of the inherent conflict of interest.

There is such thing in arbitration as "Law of Shop". This covers the basics that every arbitrator must adhere to. Goodell did not do this, so regardless of "deference", the CA2 should have upheld Berman's decision.

 

[DaBruinz]

"If you believe the evidence is overwhelming, you say Berman should have deferred to the arbitrator."

No you don't. There's already legal precedent that says that even if the arbitrator is a complete moron the courts defer his his decision because it's what both parties agreed to in the CBA.

Could you please cite this "precedent" you claim was already set?

 

[DaBruinz]

While Berman did rule based on process - among other things, that it was unfair and that the NFL didn't even have any hard evidence that anything happened - along the way he was very clear in his belief that based on the findings presented by the NFL, that nothing happened

This took the NFL by surprise at least in a legal sense

The 2nd Circuit meanwhile ALSO had two judges who issued a decision that was, on the surface based on the process - but in the 2 judge's mind that process need not be fair - it need only be the "process" by which the Arbitrator can issue whatever decision he wants, with or without evidence or reasonable justification

In effect they went out of their way to say that they took Goodell at his word that Brady is guilty - because that's the arbitration process agreed to by the CBA - that Goodell need not be fair and his ruling supercedes even the judiciary

The chief judge disagreed, meaning 2 of the 4 judges that have thus far heard the case disagree

One of many reasons why I hope the new en banc hearing is granted. If there's one thing the courts are supposed to do, it's make sure that everyone is treated fairly.

That's a principle that rises well above the NFL/NFLPA CBA - it's in the Constitution

No where does it say in Article 46 that Goodell has the right to ignore "Law of Shop". No where does it say that Goodell can ignore standard operating procedures for an Arbitrator. It is a given that an Arbitrator will act in specific ways. If they don't, then they aren't acting as an Arbitrator.

 

[Gronkowski123]

wish robert had some fight.

 

[XLIX]

Could you please cite this "precedent" you claim was already set?

The precedent exists, but I am not going to spend a pleasant Saturday afternoon looking it up.

This is an uphill battle for Brady, but one I think they still have a good chance of winning. IMHO their best bet is to go after Goodell with his abuse of arbitrator's discretion.

 

[Jackson 2]

wish robert had some fight.

Robert doesn't matter in this matter one iota. Get over it.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Could you please cite this "precedent" you claim was already set?

MLB v. Garvey says that the arbitrator can get the facts wrong and misinterpret the CBA but he can't violate the essence of the agreement and administer his "own brand of industrial justice." It's clear as mud, but it is the law and two CA2 justices used this as a justification for their effed up decision to overturn Berman's call.

 

[Fencer]

You're considered innocent until proven guilty if you are charged with a crime.

Deflategate wasn't a crime (meaning, the police didn't come and arrest Tom Brady). It was a supposed rule violation that was handled internally by the NFL and Pats. Yes, employers and arbitrators should act in good faith (like not make up false charges) but according to the ruling of the Appellate Court, they can because of the extreme deference given to arbitrators (even if it's the same guy who levied the original punishment....because that's what the poorly written and bargained for CBA says).

What Goodell MUST or must not do is well-addressed by your comment.

But what he SHOULD or should not do is different.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Bravo.

Is it just me or are there others that want to punch these repetitive gif's (?) in the face when you see them.

This guy deserves a good smack just for looking the way he does.

 

[DaBruinz]

MLB v. Garvey says that the arbitrator can get the facts wrong and misinterpret the CBA but he can't violate the essence of the agreement and administer his "own brand of industrial justice." It's clear as mud, but it is the law and two CA2 justices used this as a justification for their effed up decision to overturn Berman's call.

And any imbecile knows that Goodell did exactly that. Administered his own brand of justice. Which he is not allowed to do per Garvey. Per the "Law of Shop". Per all the rules governing Arbitrators. The two judges saying otherwise when there is mounds of factual evidence to the contrary is pure lunacy..

 

[OhExaulted1]

This guy deserves a Patriots Fan of the Year award or sonething. God Bless America.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

And any imbecile knows that Goodell did exactly that. Administered his own brand of justice. Which he is not allowed to do per Garvey. Per the "Law of Shop". Per all the rules governing Arbitrators. The two judges saying otherwise when there is mounds of factual evidence to the contrary is pure lunacy..

OK. I agree with you. Judge Berman agrees with you. The Chief Judge of CA2 agrees with you. Two other judges in CA2 disagree with you. So here we are . . .

 

[JoeSixPat]

No where does it say in Article 46 that Goodell has the right to ignore "Law of Shop". No where does it say that Goodell can ignore standard operating procedures for an Arbitrator. It is a given that an Arbitrator will act in specific ways. If they don't, then they aren't acting as an Arbitrator.

I agree

The judges obviously don't

The sad thing is, that's the reality with judges - even when they're wrong, they're right

 

[JoeSixPat]

It's equal protection under the law. No laws were broken here. CBA's don't have to be fair and can only be illegal if the penalties agreed to include things like killing you for screwing up or something like that.

Basically, if the NFLPA agreed to let the Comish arbitrate his own rulings they have no one to blame for their crappy work arrangement but themselves.

Actually as someone else pointed out, it would be a reasonable expectation that Goodell would be fair and follow the Law of Shop

Goodell asserts the CBA doesn't require him to be fair as arbitrator, the NFLPA feels that by definition an arbitrator is supposed to be fair

Seems to me it will be a sad day for everyone if the Judges find that in our system of justice and arbitration, fairness is optional

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Actually as someone else pointed out, it would be a reasonable expectation that Goodell would be fair and follow the Law of Shop

Goodell asserts the CBA doesn't require him to be fair as arbitrator, the NFLPA feels that by definition an arbitrator is supposed to be fair

Seems to me it will be a sad day for everyone if the Judges find that in our system of justice and arbitration, fairness is optional

That's basically what arbitration is, trading fairness and due process for expediency. It's almost always a sh*t deal for the little guy.

 

[JoeSixPat]

That's basically what arbitration is, trading fairness and due process for expediency. It's almost always a sh*t deal for the little guy.

No - if there's anything that says "arbitration isn't meant to be fair" that's news to our union, I can assure you

We have very clear rules about warnings, punishments depending on what happens - and like the NFLPA CBA, we in management have no right to personal cellphones

If someone refused to give up their personal cellphone when we asked, and we fired them because that was an indicator (a poor one) of guilt, as it currently stands we have no leg to stand on - they get their job back

If this ruling stands then the CBA with our union is now optional - which honestly is GREAT from a management perspective, even though in this case it was used to unjustly slander and punish Brady

Gotta wonder if the unionized Hatriots fans elsewhere in the country have yet realized this ruling just ended their right to work, as some will no doubt assert and test in the courts down the line

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

No - if there's anything that says "arbitration isn't meant to be fair" that's news to our union, I can assure you

We have very clear rules about warnings, punishments depending on what happens - and like the NFLPA CBA, we in management have no right to personal cellphones

If someone refused to give up their personal cellphone when we asked, and we fired them because that was an indicator (a poor one) of guilt, as it currently stands we have no leg to stand on - they get their job back

If this ruling stands then the CBA with our union is now optional - which honestly is GREAT from a management perspective, even though in this case it was used to unjustly slander and punish Brady

Gotta wonder if the unionized Hatriots fans elsewhere in the country have yet realized this ruling just ended their right to work, as some will no doubt assert and test in the courts down the line

Arbitration CAN work if your arbitrator is: (1) a lawyer; (2) a true neutral; (3) smart and experienced; (4) takes his job seriously and works diligently toward a just resolution. In other words, someone who is pretty much the exact opposite of Goodell.

 

[mosey threetupu]

My father was one also, and never understood what he was talking about until years later.. he died young.

He was an engineer on a boat that towed mulberry harbors into Arromarches or Utah Beach, but never could understand what he meant by concrete caissons.. he became a brilliant weapons engineer, but a lousy teacher.

My grandfather was a tail gunner in France and Italy. He told some interesting stories. He was one tough SOB. I'm sure he had some more R rated stories but I only got the PG13 ones.