A way around the waiting list!

[fgssand]

Enjoy the seats man - you earned them as there is no question you work your ass off.

One condition though - you must pledge to YELL YOUR ASS OFF at the stadium or I will personally see to it your seats are revoked.

 

[IcyPatriot]

So someone who makes alot of money can charge for 3 years of happy endings and get Patriots tickets ... thanks for the HEADs up.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The deductiblity of the expenses has nothing to do with the perk her recieves for using the credit card.
If his business is home building and he puts the cost of materials on the credit card or pays cash it makes no difference to the deductibility.
The fact that by paying on the credit card earns him something from the credit card has nothing to do with the nature of the expense.
I would assume the value of the tickets would be declarable as income, but the deductions would not be affected.

That seems to be the consensus on the questions I raised and I appreciate your feedback as well as that of others; the benefit is probably taxable, but the IRS won't bother him unless someone drops a dime or he gets audited for doing something that the auditor decides is "in the face" of the IRS.

The broader public policy question, perhaps outside the purview of this board, seems to be whether it is "fair" that someone who owns a business, with material, tax deductible expenses, can manage the payment of those expenses in such a way that s/he obtains a material personal benefit, quantifiable in arms-length terms (the season tix are valued at the time of their sale).

Since corporations are "individuals," let's take an extreme, hypothetical example. A much larger, privately owned corporation (pick one; you could start with Walmart or Fidelity Investments and work your way down) somehow manages, thanks to smart accountants and lawyers, to funnel $100 million of expenses through a credit card program. It then takes the benefits gained from that exercise and provides them as a benefit to the owner's family and to its Board Members, lavishing gifts upon them. Is that OK? As a taxpayer, you're subsidizing their ability to do that by allowing them a deduction for their expenses. In turn, they are providing a tax free benefit to their Directors.

Don't try to argue about the relative size of the benefits provided by Walmart and the OP. I'd remind you of the old story: A very rich man goes up to a very beautiful woman and asks him if she will spend the night with him for $10 million. She hesitates for a nanosecond and says, "Yes," practically falling out of her dress. He then steps back and says, "Well, in that case, would you sleep with me for $100." She pulls her skirt back up and responds, "Never. What kind of a woman do you think I am." He responds, "Well, Ma'am, we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

 

[RayClay]

Ok gotta say this. Who gives a crap about them? Btw I am one of them, but good for him its absolutely intended to use the card that way. Using a credit card to jimmy open a lock is using it in a way not intended. He spent his hard earned cash on his business and was rewarded for it good for him. When my business gets really going I hope to have this same opportunity to me but if not I aint gonna **** on someone who can cause thats just chilidish

No kidding, what a bunch of sourpusses. The man made the system work, and used his bean. Good for him.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Wealth envy, the favorite of pols, raises its head on Patsfans. Look, the guy runs his own business delivers a service or provides product that people freely and willingly buy. Should a financial institution want HIS business enough to give him a 'discount' in the form of a season ticket for a large amount of financial business, that's fine. If anyone has a problem with that, it's with Kraft for providing STs to such institutions. But frankly, it's not much different from Mastercard giving me American Airlines miles.

Those of you envious, take the personal risk and hard work and start your own company. Thankfully many people DO, and thereby provide employment for many.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

How is that consistent with your original post that this is about the worst idea you have ever heard?

you just don't get it buddy

 

[cartmen]

That seems to be the consensus on the questions I raised and I appreciate your feedback as well as that of others; the benefit is probably taxable, but the IRS won't bother him unless someone drops a dime or he gets audited for doing something that the auditor decides is "in the face" of the IRS.

The broader public policy question, perhaps outside the purview of this board, seems to be whether it is "fair" that someone who owns a business, with material, tax deductible expenses, can manage the payment of those expenses in such a way that s/he obtains a material personal benefit, quantifiable in arms-length terms (the season tix are valued at the time of their sale).

Since corporations are "individuals," let's take an extreme, hypothetical example. A much larger, privately owned corporation (pick one; you could start with Walmart or Fidelity Investments and work your way down) somehow manages, thanks to smart accountants and lawyers, to funnel $100 million of expenses through a credit card program. It then takes the benefits gained from that exercise and provides them as a benefit to the owner's family and to its Board Members, lavishing gifts upon them. Is that OK? As a taxpayer, you're subsidizing their ability to do that by allowing them a deduction for their expenses. In turn, they are providing a tax free benefit to their Directors.

Don't try to argue about the relative size of the benefits provided by Walmart and the OP. I'd remind you of the old story: A very rich man goes up to a very beautiful woman and asks him if she will spend the night with him for $10 million. She hesitates for a nanosecond and says, "Yes," practically falling out of her dress. He then steps back and says, "Well, in that case, would you sleep with me for $100." She pulls her skirt back up and responds, "Never. What kind of a woman do you think I am." He responds, "Well, Ma'am, we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

stupid analogy cause this isn't Walmart, this guy probably puts in 80 hrs a week like many of us SBO (Small biz owners) do. We work as asses off and are no way close to those Walmart exec you try to lump us into. Thanks for completly missing the point that this guy has earned his tix just not the conventional way.

 

[fgssand]

Those of you envious, take the personal risk and hard work and start your own company. Thankfully many people DO, and thereby provide employment for many.

Damn straight.....jump in everyone the water is warm and there is nothing stopping anyone from starting their own business so you too can realize the American dream.

You won't be assured of a paycheck right away, you sure wont be working 9-5, but with a little luck and a lot of hard work, you can make it happen.

The OP has obviously paid enough of a price to have earned the perk of being in a position to gain from his Visa points.

 

[patchick]

stupid analogy cause this isn't Walmart, this guy probably puts in 80 hrs a week like many of us SBO (Small biz owners) do. We work as asses off and are no way close to those Walmart exec you try to lump us into. Thanks for completly missing the point that this guy has earned his tix just not the conventional way.

I think the analogy was perfectly sound. You're absolutely right that the OP did nothing wrong, and DEFINITELY didn't "use the card in a way it wasn't intended." This is precisely what the credit card company intended: to entice people to funnel every possible expense through the card, with a cut of the action in return. Whether that's in the form of football tickets, frequent flyer miles or what have you, it's all the same and there's a word for it:

Kickbacks.

These "reward programs" that reward you for making other people shell out to a third party are simple, straightforward kickbacks. And we all end up paying for them, especially when they go beyond the end consumer and work their way up and down the business supply chain.

As consumers, we channel a few thousand dollars worth of expenses through cards because they're convenient. But as this thread shows, you now have business owners funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars through the cards even when it's inconvenient and incurs costs of time or money, in order to reap personal -- not business -- rewards.

So all of your suppliers shell over 2% of their income to the banks for no benefit. And let's say all of them start funneling their expenses through their cards the same way. Do it at every stage of the supply chain and you've essentially introduced a value-added tax, paid to credit card companies rather than the government. And to top it all off, the kickbacks aren't treated as income, no matter how lavish and valuable they get. Go figure.

The OP did NOTHING wrong, but IMO the system is seriously problematic.

 

[Urgent]

OK, here's another way around the season ticket waiting list.

Over the next three years, every month send $33 million to your credit card company, and bank it. With the investment and interest, at the end of three years, you could buy the team.

Then sit in the owner's box.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

OK, here's another way around the season ticket waiting list.

Over the next three years, every month send $33 million to your credit card company, and bank it. With the investment and interest, at the end of three years, you could buy the team.

Then sit in the owner's box.

I think your on to something here

 

[Ring 6]

That seems to be the consensus on the questions I raised and I appreciate your feedback as well as that of others; the benefit is probably taxable, but the IRS won't bother him unless someone drops a dime or he gets audited for doing something that the auditor decides is "in the face" of the IRS.

The broader public policy question, perhaps outside the purview of this board, seems to be whether it is "fair" that someone who owns a business, with material, tax deductible expenses, can manage the payment of those expenses in such a way that s/he obtains a material personal benefit, quantifiable in arms-length terms (the season tix are valued at the time of their sale).

Since corporations are "individuals," let's take an extreme, hypothetical example. A much larger, privately owned corporation (pick one; you could start with Walmart or Fidelity Investments and work your way down) somehow manages, thanks to smart accountants and lawyers, to funnel $100 million of expenses through a credit card program. It then takes the benefits gained from that exercise and provides them as a benefit to the owner's family and to its Board Members, lavishing gifts upon them. Is that OK? As a taxpayer, you're subsidizing their ability to do that by allowing them a deduction for their expenses. In turn, they are providing a tax free benefit to their Directors.

Don't try to argue about the relative size of the benefits provided by Walmart and the OP. I'd remind you of the old story: A very rich man goes up to a very beautiful woman and asks him if she will spend the night with him for $10 million. She hesitates for a nanosecond and says, "Yes," practically falling out of her dress. He then steps back and says, "Well, in that case, would you sleep with me for $100." She pulls her skirt back up and responds, "Never. What kind of a woman do you think I am." He responds, "Well, Ma'am, we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price."

First, i cannot imagine how it is a public policy question.
It is a credit card company offering a perk for you to use their service. It's like saying when the grocery store has spam for buy one get one free, if Walmarty bought every employee a can of spam for Christmas, its a matter of public policy that they got so many free cans of spam.

The other HUGE flaw with your argument centers around the idea that there is something improper going on.
First you say Privately held, but list pubilcly held corporations. Since you listed Walmart and Fidelity, I will assume you meant to say publicly held, since both of those companys are owned by shareholders and traded on the NYSE.

The impropriety you seem to be inferring here is the age old "businesses make money at the expense of people" a version of the tax cuts for corporations are bad moves and indicative of corruption.
This is the most butchered concept in American history.
First, those corporations provide 'Joe Lunchbucket' with his livelihood' so what benefits the corporation also benefits the little guy.
Im sure that could be argued indefinitely over who gets how much of the benefit and so forth. And I'm sure your attitude would be along the lines of Joe Lunchbucket wont get more money if you give a corporate tax break, the big corporations will get it.

Herein lies the flaw. If the corporation gets the money from the tax breaks, perks, etc, WHO IS THE CORPORATION?
Corporations are owned by stock holders. Over 60% of the stock in American corporations are held by INSTITUTIONAL INVESTORS, meaning 401ks, pensions and mutual funds(of which most investment is by middle income people in investment vehicles).
The other 40%? By industrius people who have put themselves into a position through hard work and savings to be able to invest in the stock market. A very small precentage is owned by the executives of the coroporation, and the purpose for that is that they benefit if they produce gains for their shareholders.
So, when XYZ Corporation is given a 100 million tax break, and the politcal disinformation is that 'we give money to the big corporations, at the expense of the little guy' understand that this 100million first had a purpose (the tax break was an incentive for something) second very likely kept thousands of Americans working, and 3rd created additional profit for the 'owners of XYZ' which turn out to be YOU AND I.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

So, when XYZ Corporation is given a 100 million tax break, and the politcal disinformation is that 'we give money to the big corporations, at the expense of the little guy' understand that this 100million first had a purpose (the tax break was an incentive for something) second very likely kept thousands of Americans working, and 3rd created additional profit for the 'owners of XYZ' which turn out to be YOU AND I.

Not that I'm for special interest corporate welfare for the politically connected but folks should know that corporate earnings are taxed twice in this country. First the corporate income tax on profits, and secondly as the dividends the companies pay to shareholders from these profits are taxed as dividend income to the shareholders.

 

[patchick]

First, i cannot imagine how it is a public policy question.
It is a credit card company offering a perk for you to use their service. It's like saying when the grocery store has spam for buy one get one free, if Walmarty bought every employee a can of spam for Christmas, its a matter of public policy that they got so many free cans of spam.

First off, those Walmart employees would be expected to pay taxes on "gifts" from their employer.

But more significantly, a typical customer loyalty reward is for YOUR business. You buy ten lattes, your next latte is free. But credit card perks -- particularly for business users -- are for forcing SOMEBODY ELSE to do business with the credit card company. That's why one is a reward, the other a kickback.

 

[Ring 6]

First off, those Walmart employees would be expected to pay taxes on "gifts" from their employer.

But more significantly, a typical customer loyalty reward is for YOUR business. You buy ten lattes, your next latte is free. But credit card perks -- particularly for business users -- are for forcing SOMEBODY ELSE to do business with the credit card company. That's why one is a reward, the other a kickback.

No, the reward I receive if for ME using the credit card.
I am not FORCING anyone to do anything. They do not have to accept credit cards, they choose to.

 

[Pujo]

Not that I'm for special interest corporate welfare for the politically connected but folks should know that corporate earnings are taxed twice in this country. First the corporate income tax on profits, and secondly as the dividends the companies pay to shareholders from these profits are taxed as dividend income to the shareholders.

Though small corporations (ones with 100 or fewer shareholders) aren't subject to double-taxation if they elect to incorporate as an S-corporation.

 

[Tunescribe]

... the OP did nothing wrong, and DEFINITELY didn't "use the card in a way it wasn't intended."

OK, I was going to stay out of this being a minority dissenter here, but seeing that my own words have been tossed back at me, I'll respond: No, the OP did nothing technically wrong; however, I'll venture that the WAY he went about it was not how the Patriots perks program was intended. That is, funneling high volumes of business dough through a credit card program designed for personal use over a relatively short period of time with sole intent of collecting the prize. He said it himself: "a way around the waiting list." So, I suppose any business person with the means to do so, if they are so inclined, can leap-frog the wait list to grab season tickets. Each person who does this ensures that those on the waiting list (folks of "lesser means") will have to wait that much longer, assuming a certain number of seats aren't reserved for the promotion. I've seen these cards hawked at the games: They're intended for personal accounts, not as business cards.

Folks bemoaning the continuing "corporatization" of football at the expense of the common joe might see this as another small example of money trumping fan loyalty -- in this case, to the detriment of folks who've languished on the list for years with the team at its peak.

Again, he did nothing wrong in a technical sense. Whether it was done with a sense of fairness and propriety might be open to question. But life sure ain't fair, and we all know that "finding your way around something" as a short-cut to gratification is applauded in this society.

I know my perspective on this will be slammed, so have at it. But first, I'd like to mention that I've had Patriots season tickets since 1994 and have been a self-employed businessman since '95.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

OK, I was going to stay out of this being a minority dissenter here, but seeing that my own words have been tossed back at me, I'll respond: No, the OP did nothing technically wrong; however, I'll venture that the WAY he went about it was not how the Patriots perks program was intended. That is, funneling high volumes of business dough through a credit card program designed for personal use over a relatively short period of time with sole intent of collecting the prize. He said it himself: "a way around the waiting list." So, I suppose any business person with the means to do so, if they are so inclined, can leap-frog the wait list to grab season tickets. Each person who does this ensures that those on the waiting list (folks of "lesser means") will have to wait that much longer, assuming a certain number of seats aren't reserved for the promotion. I've seen these cards hawked at the games: They're intended for personal accounts, not as business cards.

Folks bemoaning the continuing "corporatization" of football at the expense of the common joe might see this as another small example of money trumping fan loyalty -- in this case, to the detriment of folks who've languished on the list for years with the team at its peak.

Again, he did nothing wrong in a technical sense. Whether it was done with a sense of fairness and propriety might be open to question. But life sure ain't fair, and we all know that "finding your way around something" as a short-cut to gratification is applauded in this society.

I know my perspective on this will be slammed, so have at it. But first, I'd like to mention that I've had Patriots season tickets since 1994 and have been a self-employed businessman since '95.

This seems to me IMO the most reasonable thought/ point of view in this thread

 

[cartmen]

OK, I was going to stay out of this being a minority dissenter here, but seeing that my own words have been tossed back at me, I'll respond: No, the OP did nothing technically wrong; however, I'll venture that the WAY he went about it was not how the Patriots perks program was intended. That is, funneling high volumes of business dough through a credit card program designed for personal use over a relatively short period of time with sole intent of collecting the prize. He said it himself: "a way around the waiting list." So, I suppose any business person with the means to do so, if they are so inclined, can leap-frog the wait list to grab season tickets. Each person who does this ensures that those on the waiting list (folks of "lesser means") will have to wait that much longer, assuming a certain number of seats aren't reserved for the promotion. I've seen these cards hawked at the games: They're intended for personal accounts, not as business cards.

Folks bemoaning the continuing "corporatization" of football at the expense of the common joe might see this as another small example of money trumping fan loyalty -- in this case, to the detriment of folks who've languished on the list for years with the team at its peak.

Again, he did nothing wrong in a technical sense. Whether it was done with a sense of fairness and propriety might be open to question. But life sure ain't fair, and we all know that "finding your way around something" as a short-cut to gratification is applauded in this society.

I know my perspective on this will be slammed, so have at it. But first, I'd like to mention that I've had Patriots season tickets since 1994 and have been a self-employed businessman since '95.

If you are what you say then you know that he worked his butt off to get those sales and like he said he did it in 3 years which is well within the time frame. I would have to believe these are put aside by Visa or MC or AMEX so as to ensure there are tickets available. he did not cheat anyone out of anything life is not fair as you stated and people are not created equal or at least once they are created equal they instantly change from one another. if the people on the list want to complain like someone else said on here pick up a shovel and "Hoe that row" It aint easy being a SBO and this aint some multimillionar we are talking about. let me ask you a question do you really think a huge privately owned biz has to do these tactics to gain season tickets??? You know what Tom Ryan had to do??? Make a phone call to Robert Kraft and whaalaa instant tickets. Thats privelge not this this was hard work and another avenue of interest if wanting season tickets

 

[Tunescribe]

If you are what you say ... let me ask you a question do you really think a huge privately owned biz has to do these tactics to gain season tickets???

First of all, your use of the term "these tactics" is pretty telling. There's already a system in place for getting season tickets, and it's called the waiting list. Why should it be considered well and good to resort to "tactics"? And I made no reference to a "huge, privately owned business" having trouble getting tickets to games. All they have to do is buy club seats or a luxury box. The OP's example makes it pretty clear there are folks with the capability and intention of employing "tactics" to get something they want.

I got my season tix in February, 1994 after getting up at 3 a.m. to park in the Foxboro Stadium lot so I could be in line when they went on sale. The web site for my business is progressionmagazine.com.