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A thread on Israel, its borders, and Obama's speech

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, May 21, 2011.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We do not have a thread on this subject. We do have a thread called "anti-Semite" which apparently is intended to make the argument that the president hates Jews because he takes the radical [sic] position that the 1967 borders are a significant starting-point for peace.

    This thread by contrast is about what we think of the proposal and its various component parts. It is an old formula, as the Mrs. demonstrated in the thread about anti-Semitism.

    So what are the possibilities? what are the pitfalls? What does it mean to say a "contiguous" Palestinian state? Is a solution an extraterritorial corridor? Should people stop saying "contiguous"? Does "contiguous" necessarily mean cutting across thickly-settled areas of Israel, or does it mean swapping some of the Negev for something else? What happens to Yotvata, Ktura, or Eilat, if Israel cedes a long V-shaped strip of the Negev to Palestine? What part of the West Bank would be ceded to Israel in exchange (thereby legitimizing some settlement activity?) It would have to be a part of the West Bank contiguous to Israel, clearly.

    Israel in such a world would have every right to make passage through Israel proper -- a convenience -- just as lax or just as simple as it likes.

    The first and easiest question is whether it is desireable to insist on a contiguous Palestine. My assumed answer to that is yes, but only if we also recognize the significance of a contiguous Israel. Given the geography, that means land swaps.

    The land swaps would have to come with guarantees for minorities in the affected areas, and right of resettlement for those in each population who don't like how they landed in the peace process. The international community could be helpful in that process: if I want to leave some small town just to the East of the narrowest bit of Israel proper -- which I'd always heard was 10 miles wide, not 7, but who's counting -- the international presence could guarantee that I could effect the sale of whatever land or dwelling I own, and peaceably move. The same goes for leaving some place along the "V" road. By the time people are selling to move, etc., one would hope we were well along the way to Peace.

    The big problem is that neither community would likely want to remain "behind the lines." But keeping any such population moves minimized as possible and officially voluntary would go a long way toward not creating a new hew and cry about land being "stolen."

    Optimally, neither state authority, Palestine or Israel, would mistreat its minority population, and neither minority population would routinely resort to forming extra-governmental armed gangs.

    Now, before this point, Israel has every right to expect that it be dealing with a state authority in waiting. Many years ago, that was the PA. Palestine needs to be represented by a bargaining authority that 1) does not accept rival armed presences "speaking for" Palestine, 2) represents the Palestinian people, 3) recognizes the legitimacy of Israel, as constituted within the 1967 borders, and 4) recognizes the legitimacy of the process of getting to "final status," with two states living side by side.

    Now, for those who see this post as Utopian, consider:

    All of this is immeasurably more doable than untangling the final status of Jerusalem.

    I don't know about the "V" road (I just made it up. Sorry, Eilat!) I don't know about other interpretations out there of the "contiguous" clause. I do know my hope these days is that our grandchildren will have a world where Israel is secure and at peace with a state of Palestine. I do know it will not be at peace and secure without one.

    And it's possible that that's the case with one as well.

    Oh by the way -- we all know that if the US has the sense to get off the oil addiction, the American fascination goes away. Now's the time, innit?

    PFnV
     
  2. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I don't think there's any workable map that can be drawn today.

    My solution: force all the Jewish and Palestinian kids to go to school together before they develop the deep distrust that exists between the adults today and then revisit the issue in 50 years. At that point they'll probably be able to work out a reasonable solution on the back of a ****tail napkin.
     
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The thread "anti semite" wasn't about the president hating anybody and you damn well know it, the thread was about this screwed up inexpierianced clown president's disloyalty to an old firend and completely turning on them like a viper.

    What the anti semite thread was about was Barack Hussein Obama sh!tting all over Israel one of America's allies, a tiny little country surrounded by drooling bloodthirsty jackals who want to destory them and slaughter them, Barack Hussein Obama is no firend of Israels.

    I don't believe Obama hates Jews, but I believe he is an Anti Semite, now twist that one around.
     
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Copy and paste your nonsensical reply over in your thread about "anti-Semite." This is a thread about Israel, its borders, and Obama's speech.

    Please don't try to hijack it again.

    PFnV
     
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You mentioned The Anti Semite thread in the first post of your thread I responded about the thread that you mentioned in your thread if this thread was intended to be a thread on a different subject you probably shouldn't have mentioned the other thread if you had not mentioned the other thread that thread wouldn't have been mentioned in this thread, I will also post my response to this thread in the other thread.

    :bricks:
     
  6. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you have anything to say about Israel's borders, in any future peace negotiations? Do you have anything to say about a give-and-take, assuming a partner with whom Israel could negotiate? Do you have anything to say about encouraging the formation of any such authority? Do you have anything to say about the viability of the PA's possibility of becomming that authority, the significance of the challenge mounted by Hamas, the significance of the "Arab Spring" to the two main Palestinian factions in the context of any future peace talks?

    This is the thread for it.

    I'm not optimistic. It's more of an exercise for me than something I view as imminent. I'd like to see what people think it could look like.

    PFnV
     
  7. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I remember reading an article quite some years back about a particular settlement in the area in which they actually planned the houses so that there was a Muslim family living next door to a Jewish family and so on and so forth throughout the entire settlement.

    At first there was resistance - and lots of neighbors not talking to neighbors but, as time went on, they realized that they could accomplish much more as friends than as enemies. Apparently, it's hard to hate the person you need to borrow a cup of sugar from.

    Anyhow, it worked out well. They all co-existed, not just peacefully, but with active joint participation in neighborhood affairs, schools, hospitals and local government.

    There's something to be said for your idea, SDaniels, there really is.
     
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Better be careful your age or lack thereof is showing, again.
     
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now your talking "as a twig is bent so the tree shall grow" or something like that, Adolph Hitler the monster realized that very concept when he said "give me a child at the age of one and let me keep him until he is thirteen and he will remain a nazi for the rest of his life"

    The adults over there hate each other to much to allow that to happen now but who knows, as mans brain keeps developing maybe they will lose the savagery that now imbeds their f-cking grey matter.

    :bricks:
     
  10. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is a camp in Maine that tries to do that.. it is an extremly small step, but a step.

    Home | Seeds of Peace
     
  11. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20speech.html?_r=2&hp



    He is giving time to both parties to settle, before countries in Europe and other parts of the World, recognize "Palestine" as a new state.
     
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They had some trouble at that camp last year, I think the kids there are to old, you have to get them before they can develop that thing that older kids get about each other, todays leaders would never allow "love for each other" to happen, it seems as though they enjoy fighting and killing each other, it has been going on for century's.

    If there were only two human beings left on this earth and if they should somehow meet, the first thing they would do is have a fight.
     
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    So, Harry, do these two statements mean that it's not just the smelly stinky swine pig Muslims you always blame who are at fault?

    If that is, indeed, the case, why do you think Obama has thrown Israel in particular under the bus as you repeatedly state?

    Is he not asking the same thing you are asking here? For both sides to make concessions and for both sides to co-exist side-by-side?

    Since you acknowledge here that it is a "they" problem and not a "them" problem how do you differ with Obama's stance on returning to pre-existing borders and allowing for two states, Israel and Palestine, with each to be self-governing and respectful of one another?
     
  14. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Since 1948, the Israeli people have suffered through and won five wars and two intifadas waged against them by five Arab state armies, and the Palestinians. Had Israel lost a single war or either of the intifadas, the consequences for it would have been total destruction, the Jewish people being slaughtered in large numbers and survivors expelled from the land. I have no doubt that the Palestinian terrorists believe in the battle cry of Osama bin Laden's second in command, Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi, who has stated, "Killing the infidels is our religion, slaughtering them is our religion, until they convert to Islam or pay us tribute."

    RealClearPolitics - Articles - The New York Times' Anti-Israel Bias
     
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, there are a variety of ideologies they, and other terrorists, have used to justify terrorism. Fatah has no such admiration for Islamist extremism, being primarily a nationalist movement. I am sure you can find quotes from Fatah leadership trying to coopt an Islamist justification. Hamas, of course, is an entirely different story; yet I am fairly certain that AQ has little or no influence in their particular brand of Islamist ideology.

    All this is, however, irrelevant. Those who are serious about pursuing mideast peace recognize that Israeli security guarantees and the right of Israel to exist are as crucial to peace as Palestinian self-determination.

    Thanks for your abridged history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. By the way, it was 5 armies in '48, not in each of the full-scale wars. I don't know if you count the race across the Sinai in '56, where they, the Brits, and the French fought Egypt, and were rolled back by the U.S. (through diplomatic means.) In 1967 the war was initiated by Israel, although it was pretty much a done deal there would be a war, and it was a matter of who struck and when. 1973 was a coordinated sneak-attack by Egypt and Syria first, on Yom Kippur, as of course you, as our resident scholar of the Arab-Israeli conflict already knew.

    Now: since we all know that Israel and its borders are real subjects that affect real people, why don't you come up with a real point. Thus far you've come up with a lot of vitriol. I personally am far to the right of a lot of our leftist posters on this subject, but I have taken the time to understand the conflict all my life.

    Have you? Or is it a game to you, Harry, another thing to throw out a random opinion on without any depth of knowledge?

    When you get my friend's kids killed, will that be points in your game? How about my cousins? Will you trot out the Fox News talking points about how peace is and always will be impossible, because inevitably, these Jews were killed? Will you point to the war that you fan the flames for as the inevitible result?

    We're probably not that far apart Harry. I'm not optimistic either. I am not one to say "oh joy, look, another peace talk!" I do like it when they try, but I never hold my breath.

    But as I've said, I have taken the time to understand the conflict. I do not think really highly of your analysis. I am sure you feel it is one of your best-researched efforts and all, but it's pretty one-dimensional.

    I frankly doubt much else is coming of this, the last in a long line of presidential declarations that these two parties must make peace, the formula for which has been the same for at least a couple of decades. I do not find it necessary to therefore make inaccurate statements about the history of the region or the parties to the conflict.

    It's just a different habit of mind, Harry. I look for the facts, and when they suggest regrettable outcomes, I do not rejoice.

    But that's just me.

    PFnV
     
  16. PatsFanInVa

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    Today's speech:

    I stopped counting the number of times Obama was interrupted by applause speaking to AIPAC, but I had counted at least a half dozen occasions within a couple of minutes.

    This includes his descriptions of a two-state solution.

    He ended his speech to pretty thunderous applause.

    AIPAC evidently needs more hard-headed realists from Fox news or rural America, rather than people intimately engaged in the details of American-Israeli relations.

    By the way, for those who don't follow the issue: AIPAC is notoriously neocon by orientation, and is basically a very rightist organization on Israel-Palestinian issues.

    PFnV
     
  17. TheSolderKing

    TheSolderKing In the Starting Line-Up

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    My greatest fear of this situation is that Iran will give these Palestinians a dirty bomb to detonate in Israel.


    Using a Harryboy Term from a Walt Disney Movie.


    DUMBO
    ju7st made bad move.


    The BAMF points r cooling off. No soft shyt. I want that MILITARY might take no prisoners attitude back Obama.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2011
  18. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To paraphrase the president, you need to know whose *** to kick.

    It's a pretty good idea to start with America's sworn enemies - oh look! Turns out we're doing that!

    Here's the thing about foreign policy: it is not automatically right and efficient to kill people. It is not automatically wrong and inefficient to pursue peace. The Iraq war is pretty widely looked on as a mistake, though I know our resident militarists will defend it to their graves. By contrast, diplomacy between Egypt and Israel resulted in an end to the state of constant warfare that pertained between 1948 and 1973. That's 38 years of a cold peace, which I personally will take over a shooting war.

    It is highly inefficient to take a BAMF attitude toward one of two parties when attempting to start (yet again) on peace talks.

    PFnV
     
  19. Why?PJ

    Why?PJ On the Game Day Roster

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    The problem is no one is the middle east wants peace right now. Well besides the people living in Israel, no matter their religion.

    You can't honestly say Iran wants peace, or any of the new so called Muslim "democracies" that are sprouting up with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. They've already shown which side they were on.

    Oh, and you want to talk about the so called Palestinian people. It is funny since there never has been a Palestine. And none of their so called "brother" muslim countries wanted to take them in, instead they let them wander like this, almost, ahem, intentionally to cause more trouble.

    If you want real peace in the middle east, let Israel defend itself any way it wants. All the citizens of Israel, no matter which religion they are, would rather have it that way.

    Oh, and when Muslims are using the talking points of Nazi's, maybe take notice that we're in for one hell of a war, since people aren't going to do anything about it until too late, just like in WW2.
     
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    An interesting, if self-contradictory analysis.

    Let's see a link displaying this statistic, by the way, based on a poll of all 7 million or so Israelis. One seldom sees a 100% response within a poll data set. I would love to see this one just for the novelty.

    Of course, were that result to pertain, your first statement would not pertain. Your first statement is that Israelis and only Israelis want peace right now. Your second statement is that 100% of Israelis, regardless of religion, would rather that Israel "defend itself any way it wants."

    One may say that peace is not just the absence of war. However, an absence of war is, in fact, a necessary condition for peace.

    PFnV
     

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