A Starting LG Available In the late 40's

[mgteich]

As we get to a day and a half before the patriots pick, it seems that the top corners will be gone (Waynes, Johnson and Jones).

I could see us drafting a defensive lineman.

However, it seems that there is a drop off in OL quality somewhere in the 40's or 50's. If enough acceptable starting LG's are available at 32, I could see us trading down 10 spots or so and picks our starter and picking up a 3rd. I could also see a really top stud OL being available and Belichick pulling the trigger at 32.
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Perhaps, this is all wishful thinking, but I really like the idea of a plug and play LG. Well, unless we can trade up for Gurley ( a blue chipper who will likely not be picked in the top 15 because he's a running back).

 

[patsfaninpa]

There are capable starting guards in the 3rd-4th round every year. We may not even need a starter. A developmental one. All BB has to do is pick up the phone and call Connolly. John Urschel was tremendous for Baltimore last year.

Do you think it's harder to play C or G? I say C. We got Stork in the 4th. How did that work out? Unless you are committing to a power running game, a lot of capital on a LG isn't the best use of resources.

 

[Oswlek]

Perhaps it's simply my ignorance about the prospects, but it seems like every year there are plenty of competitive starters on the line who were later round selections. And quite a few of those "plug-and-play" guys aren't nearly as ready as people think.

 

[mgteich]

There are capable starting guards in the 3rd-4th round every year. We may not even need a starter. A developmental one. All BB has to do is pick up the phone and call Connolly. John Urschel was tremendous for Baltimore last year.

Do you think it's harder to play C or G? I say C. We got Stork in the 4th. How did that work out? Unless you are committing to a power running game, a lot of capital on a LG isn't the best use of resources.

I strongly disagree.

LT/LG's, or even C/G's are much higher valued than centers.

I agree that it is possible to find a starter in the later rounds. It is also possible to find a bust in the later rounds. Just because we one drafted a franchise quarterback in the 6th doesn't mean that potential franchise quarterbacks are not worth drafting in the top 5.

And so it is with OG's and RB's. Sure, you might find a starter in the 4th or 5th, or in a UDFA. That doesn't change the dynamics of the draft. Higher rated players (choose the appropriate rater of talent) are more likely to succeed than lower rated players.
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Those who think that 1st round quality players are equally likely to be starters as 4th or 5th rounders shouldn't be watching the draft, at least IMHO.
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Connolly is NOT the savior at LG. Perhaps, he has agreed to contract, perhaps not. We all understand the injury risks that Connolly brings. He has had several concussions.
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BOTTOM LINE

I agree that there are "capable" guards available in the 3rd and 4th round every year, and especially this year. It does NOT follow that our pick at the end of the 3rd will be as likely to succeed as a player chose in the 25-50 range.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps it's simply my ignorance about the prospects, but it seems like every year there are plenty of competitive starters on the line who were later round selections. And quite a few of those "plug-and-play" guys aren't nearly as ready as people think.

I agree with your statements. That is true with regard to almost all positions. However, it is much more likely that a player drafted at 45 will be a success than one chosen at 95.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I strongly disagree.

LT/LG's, or even C/G's are much higher valued than centers.

I agree that it is possible to find a starter in the later rounds. It is also possible to find a bust in the later rounds. Just because we one drafted a franchise quarterback in the 6th doesn't mean that potential franchise quarterbacks are not worth drafting in the top 5.

And so it is with OG's and RB's. Sure, you might find a starter in the 4th or 5th, or in a UDFA. That doesn't change the dynamics of the draft. Higher rated players (choose the appropriate rater of talent) are more likely to succeed than lower rated players.
=====
Those who think that 1st round quality players are equally likely to be starters as 4th or 5th rounders shouldn't be watching the draft, at least IMHO.
=====
Connolly is NOT the savior at LG. Perhaps, he has agreed to contract, perhaps not. We all understand the injury risks that Connolly brings. He has had several concussions.
======
BOTTOM LINE

I agree that there are "capable" guards available in the 3rd and 4th round every year, and especially this year. It does NOT follow that our pick at the end of the 3rd will be as likely to succeed as a player chose in the 25-50 range.

Why are you mentioning rb's and LT's? Your thread is about guards. The starting guards on our Super Bowl winners were;

14 - Connolly and Wendell - Both UDFA's
04 - Joe Andruzzi and Steven Neal - Both UDFA's.
03 Joe Andruzzi and Russ Hochstein. Both UDFA's. Woody was hurt.
01 Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi. Compton was originally a 3rd. Whom we got as a FA. Andruzzi - UDA.

I like Logan Mankins as a player. But he stunk in both Super Bowls he played in. There's your first rounder and more importantly. Higher cap hit. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that you don't have to spend valuable resources on guards in our offense.

 

[mgteich]

Why are you mentioning rb's and LT's? Your thread is about guards. The starting guards on our Super Bowl winners were;

14 - Connolly and Wendell - Both UDFA's
04 - Joe Andruzzi and Steven Neal - Both UDFA's.
03 Joe Andruzzi and Russ Hochstein. Both UDFA's. Woody was hurt.
01 Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi. Compton was originally a 3rd. Whom we got as a FA. Andruzzi - UDA.

I like Logan Mankins as a player. But he stunk in both Super Bowls he played in. There's your first rounder and more importantly. Higher cap hit. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that you don't have to spend valuable resources on guards in our offense.

Given the strength of our roster, Belichick has the luxury of not having to have UDFA's as starting guards.
Yes, the SB patriots could decide to use Kline as their LG and draft a WR tonight, or not.

You didn't like Woody or Mankins. That is certainly your privilege.

And it is certainly interesting that you don't think that LT is not relevant is choosing a LG. My guess is that most GM's think that the best LG's were often LT's in college.

The point with regard to RB's was that is the other position that most folks simply expect us to find a starter late in the draft or as an UDFA.
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And I must presume that you are NOT one of those who has criticized Belichick for the past 5 years for having OG's as weak as Wendell and Connolly. You certainly cannot be one of those who has posted that these two MUST be upgraded (since they have been here).

 

[patsfaninpa]

I'm fine with our OL. You can draft LT's late in the 3rd and 4th round and convert them to guard too. There are even a couple of guys this year who project inside. Jamil Douglas - Arizona ST and Poutasi - Utah to name two.

I'd go defense first. CB and DT. Then, I would go; rb, wr and OL.

 

[mgteich]

I'm fine with our OL. You can draft LT's late in the 3rd and 4th round and convert them to guard too. There are even a couple of guys this year who project inside. Jamil Douglas - Arizona ST and Poutasi - Utah to name two.

I'd go defense first. CB and DT. Then, I would go; rb, wr and OL.

So, you draft Rowe in the first? He's likely to be the best CB available. And who do think will be available at 64 for your DT, certainly not Jarrett?

I agree with RB and WR in the bunch picks, unless we can get Gurley.

 

[Ross12]

My perfect scenario would be the team trading back to somewhere like 36 with the Jags and still getting a CB like Rowe (or if heaven smiles down upon us, Peters), while picking up a fourth. Then getting a DT in the late second, then a mix of RB, WR, LB, and either two OG/convertible OT or one and another CB with their two thirds and three fourths.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I would trade 32 and 96 for 25 if Marcus Peters or Byron Jones are there. I'm guessing Belichick deals back to 42 and grabs PJ Williams or Jalen Collins who dropped because of drug and DUI issues. Pick up a 3rd.
Slight move up from 64 to 50ish for Carl Davis. Giving up my 4.

Me
1. B. Jones - CB
2. G. Jarrett -DT
3. M. Davis - RB
4. T. McBride - WR
4. J. Douglas - OL-

If trade out of 1st
2. PJ Williams - CB - FSU - Getting a 3
2. Carl Davis - DT - Iowa - MOVE up Giving up 131
3. A. Marpet - OL
3. M. Davis - RB
3. T. McBride - WR
4. R. Wilson - LB

 

[patchick]

The starting guards on our Super Bowl winners were;

14 - Connolly and Wendell - Both UDFA's
04 - Joe Andruzzi and Steven Neal - Both UDFA's.
03 Joe Andruzzi and Russ Hochstein. Both UDFA's. Woody was hurt.
01 Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi. Compton was originally a 3rd. Whom we got as a FA. Andruzzi - UDA.

Sure, but Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Hochstein and Andruzzi took all 3-4 years to become NFL starters -- most of them being cut by their original teams along the way. (And how many other UDFAs and late draft picks fell by the wayside in those 15 years, as that handful rose to the top?)

The only player on your list who made an impact early in his career was Compton, a #68 overall pick. So I think your list actually points to the need to draft LG early if we're looking for 2015.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Sure, but Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Hochstein and Andruzzi took all 3-4 years to become NFL starters -- most of them being cut by their original teams along the way. (And how many other UDFAs and late draft picks fell by the wayside in those 15 years, as that handful rose to the top?)

The only player on your list who made an impact early in his career was Compton, a #68 overall pick. So I think your list actually points to the need to draft LG early if we're looking for 2015.

We haven't asked a rookie draft pick to start at LG. UDFA's usually take some time. But, I'd draft a guard in the 3rd or 4th. I'm surprised anyone thinks it's harder to step in at guard than center. We started Koppen and Stark as rookies. You can also play Wendell at LG and Fleming at RG.

 

[Kontradiction]

Why are you mentioning rb's and LT's? Your thread is about guards. The starting guards on our Super Bowl winners were;

14 - Connolly and Wendell - Both UDFA's
04 - Joe Andruzzi and Steven Neal - Both UDFA's.
03 Joe Andruzzi and Russ Hochstein. Both UDFA's. Woody was hurt.
01 Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi. Compton was originally a 3rd. Whom we got as a FA. Andruzzi - UDA.

I like Logan Mankins as a player. But he stunk in both Super Bowls he played in. There's your first rounder and more importantly. Higher cap hit. I would say the evidence is pretty clear that you don't have to spend valuable resources on guards in our offense.

To be fair, Mankins played Super Bowl XLVI with a torn ACL. That he was even out there was a miracle and a testement to the size of the guy's balls. That said, I too am of the belief that some quality guard prospects can be located on days two and three. Look no further than Stork. I was never of the belief that the team absolutely needed to take Cam Erving at 32 (though I do like him as a prospect).

 

[patsfaninpa]

To be fair, Mankins played Super Bowl XLVI with a torn ACL. That he was even out there was a miracle and a testement to the size of the guy's balls. That said, I too am of the belief that some quality guard prospects can be located on days two and three. Look no further than Stork. I was never of the belief that the team absolutely needed to take Cam Erving at 32 (though I do like him as a prospect).

Many on here were clamoring for John Urschel last year. The Rocket Scientist guard from PSU. He had a fabulous rookie year. Early 5th last year. Heck, we got a lot out of Nick Kaczur his rookie year at RT. 2005 Draft.

 

[Kontradiction]

Many on here were clamoring for John Urschel last year. The Rocket Scientist guard from PSU. He had a fabulous rookie year. Early 5th last year. Heck, we got a lot out of Nick Kaczur his rookie year at RT. 2005 Draft.

Do you pull the trigger on Collins if he's available in the 3rd or 4th? I do.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Do you pull the trigger on Collins if he's available in the 3rd or 4th? I do.

Yeah, at 96 or 97. Just cut him if charged. We can afford to gamble

 

[manxman2601]

Yeah, at 96 or 97. Just cut him if charged. We can afford to gamble

Agreed. Collins is a day one starter at LG and future pro bowler. Assuming he has a future.

 

[unoriginal]

Why are you mentioning rb's and LT's? Your thread is about guards. The starting guards on our Super Bowl winners were;

14 - Connolly and Wendell - Both UDFA's
04 - Joe Andruzzi and Steven Neal - Both UDFA's.
03 Joe Andruzzi and Russ Hochstein. Both UDFA's. Woody was hurt.
01 Mike Compton and Joe Andruzzi. Compton was originally a 3rd. Whom we got as a FA. Andruzzi - UDA.

Sure, but Neal, Connolly, Wendell, Hochstein and Andruzzi took all 3-4 years to become NFL starters -- most of them being cut by their original teams along the way.

So it looks like Wendell and either Chris Barker or Jordan Devey will be the Pats starting guards next year!

 

[manxman2601]

According to @PFF, Tomlinson didn't allow a single sack or knockdown in 477 dropbacks last year at Duke.

https://twitter.com/MikeGiardi/status/593883962021380096