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A liberal economic solution

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What the country needs is a massive tax cut for the middle class and an even more massive tax increase for the wealthy (return to the Eisenhower era top bracket of 90%), including increasing capital gains for high wealth people and the restoration of the estate tax. This would allow the middle class to reduce their debt and start spending again, which would boost the economy and lower the deficit.

    What works so well about the progressive tax structure is it provides increasingly strong incentives for people to invest rather than spend. In fact, there are two incentives to invest: the lower tax rate on capital gains and the possibility that there will be a tax reduction movement sometime in the future.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2011
  2. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #15 Jersey

    After listening to a lot of commentary, and tapping into my economic memory, we should work on our infrastructure. Build some big projects. Go back in our history and look at the great projects that were built and when we built them (Hoover Dam). Let's not wait to we have more bridges collapse. Everyone knows our bridges have been piss-poor for decades. That's where we need to spend money and stimulate the economy. Yes the S word.
     
  3. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stop the Obama Wars, put the War Money into the economy, take Aunt Zucchini's food stamps away from her and give her a job in The White House walking the Obama Dog.
     
  4. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Political action idea.

    Regardless of party, write your congressman and ask that they introduce an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the poor and middle class immediately.

    Then we'd have that half covered.

    When we get around to this argument, we should only be arguing about letting the cuts to the rich expire.

    I wrote such a letter to my congressman last night.

    PFnV
     
  5. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PS = and the beauty part?

    You have to break the Norquist Pledge and fight against a tax cut, and for a "tax increase" (the way the right defines it) if you're against this bill.

    Or, you can accept this continuation of the Bush rates for the middle and the poor now, then have to argue the tax cuts to the rich on their own merits.

    See how that sits with the fu(ktards taking pledges instead of solving America's problems.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In addition, I think the case for progressive taxes needs to be made. People see them as unfair, when in fact they are perfectly fair in a capitalist economy. After all, tax money largely ends up in the hands of those who will experience increased taxation.
     
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, that's a project, but one that needs to happen.

    Trouble is you lose if you try to do overall education from the bully pulpit, unless you don't do anything else.

    You can, however, make the case for the (continued) lower-rates part, among those who need the lower rates. It's not as ambitious but it has the advantage that it's doable, and every party sees it as desirable.

    You may notice that the president has talked about "the rich paying their fair share," in terms of shouldering the burden. He's talking about their fair share of the "pain" of this era (since they got all the advantages of the last 20 years.)

    You can make that fairness case, again, if it's all you do.

    You want to fix an ingrained attitude about progressiveness in the tax code. Look around you. The proposals all go the other direction (i.e., magic tax reform fixes, where rates go down for everybody and "loopholes" get closed. Some are straightforward tax cuts.)

    Think for a minute: We have pure tax giveaways but we also encourage "good" behavior with the tax code.

    You know the U.S. will not vote in favor of legislating the behavior of corporations, or accepting national taxpayer supported programs.

    Use green energy as an example. The greenies all think ethanol was a faux fix to energy concerns, so they want that credit gone. The right wing sees it as a challenge to big oil, so they agree. Okay fine.

    What about any incentives to move forward on any other type of green energy? Those are among the "tax loopholes" that allow big oil companies to pay zero tax.

    What about 401(k) matches? You only offer them to get employees to save for their own retirements -- and by the way, as much as we do want people to spend, we paradoxically need them to invest/save too. Demographics and all that... we really don't want John Q Public taking days off to care for granma for 10 years (even if she's not ill.) We also don't want him sitting his fat boomer butt down in a chair until he's 75 and refusing to move... pressuring labor markets for the young.

    We need retirement. So how does that happen?

    1) make it compulsory.
    2) make it a national program - a national beefed up social security
    3) tax-advantage it.

    (3) includes tax sweeteners, and those are written into our "loopholes."

    At the very least, when the Pres talks about closing loopholes, he needs to be selective about it, right? Maybe that's a teachable moment, leaving aside the idiots that think Bachmann's an economist, et al.

    What can you get across to the left and the center, and have them vote for? That's the question... that's why I'd say start with small "housekeeping" things that you just have to do, tactically -- right now, to me, that means a bill to keep lower tax rates.

    At the very least, make the teabaggers vote in favor of letting the Bush rates expire. Keep introducing bills to keep rates low for the middle and the poor and just vote down the ones that keep them low for the rich.

    Past experience shows that's what's good for the country. Polls show that's what Americans support. Start hammering it, but start with a realistic target that's in sight legislatively...

    And yes we do need to have the progressive-code conversation. I just don't know you can win that from the top level down. We'll see how the millennials change that conversation, as they changed the LBGT conversation. I'm crossing my fingers. They're a bit less political than their grandboomers, but also more connected into social nets and "team players." You would think they would "get" everybody doing things for everybody's benefit.

    PFnV
     
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can't we find a way to blame this on Bush or his mother
     
  9. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This 'solution' would exacerbate our current problem and make things worse.
     
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How? The middle class would clearly spend more if their taxes were cut. The wealthy would clearly invest more if they were given reason to do so. Progressive income tax give them a reason to invest.
     
  11. patsfan13

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    The reasons it won't work are two fold, the middle class isn't spending because they are worried about losing their jobs. The 'rich' aren't investing due to the regulatory situation and the uncertainty about tax policies and the threats of increased taxes and a continuing sluggish economy.

    People invest and expand business if they think they can generate a profit. They recognize that the people in power see profits as evil. I would exempt the Really rich Buffet Soros and the link who can buy their tax breaks and whine about rates being too low.

    Socialist central planning and convoluted incentive programs that are temporary don'
    t work. People need a predictable business friendly environment with permanent incentives for production.


    When the middle class are secure about their jobs and future they will start to buy again.
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those points having nothing to do with what I said. Progressive taxes give a rich person incentives to invest. Cutting taxes for the middle class almost certain means increased consumer spending. (We can also change the regulations if you think that would give an extra boost to the economy.)

    I agree with you about a profit motive, and corporations are committed to their shareholders, not individuals. The progressive model provides incentives for corporations to do right by their shareholders, since the capital gains tax will be lower than the income tax, even in a progressive model.

    Yes, that's why I'm advocating for progressive taxation, with tax cuts to the middle class!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2011
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think people can be educated as to the prudence of progressive taxes, but I think politically the way to do it is to introduce the message with a tax cut for the middle class (and a balancing tax increase for the wealthy). That way, people would want to embrace the message, especially tea party members, I think, who are often (but not always) just confused white people blaming minorities for their problems. I don't think you can educate people first and then propose changes. It's the changes that will attract people and make them pay attention.

    If we look at Reagan, Reagan played the race card, making racist statements in the south and lying about "welfare queens" having children so they could drive around in Cadillacs. He laid the groundwork for thew wealthy, by redirecting white anger to people of color. Before that, people like Harry Boy were union members who were against the bosses. But, then, thanks to the absence of a Democratic response, any attack on the wealthy became a "class war," as if only the poor and middle class could wage class war, but the wealthy could not. Once Reagan got into the White House he moved so quickly that our economy became a wreck (with unemployment at 10.8% after 2 years). He was forced to raise taxes and do record deficit spending, but he kept his rhetoric alive, which is still exploited by the wealthy to manipulate the tea party members and the sycophants of the wealthy.
     

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