A football minor league...thoughts????

[Box_O_Rocks]

But then, innovations do occur. It would be cool, from a fan point of view, if this were one that happened.

PFnV

Innovation by committee, one of my personal favorites.

 

[Gumby]

One aspect of european soccer (even after living here I have a hard time calling it football) that I find intriquing to think about is:

They run all their leagues simultaneously. Every year the bottom 2 teams (I'm not certain of exact #) from the top league get given their walking papers to go back to a lower regional league and the top 2 teams from the lower leagues get an invite to join the big boys.

Theoretically every small town local sports club could improve sufficient year after year so that after a 5 year period they could play in the top league.

I can't think of any concievable way to integrate into the american football landscape but just the same.....

Just imagine ......... the NY Jesters get sent down to the Atlantic Conference and the Springfield Stars get invited up. Too funny.

 

[upstater1]

I don't think there is a market for this. I think hardly anyone would come and watch. Back in Ken's day (sorry Ken) you didn't have nearly the competition for people's leisure time that you do today. You guys are batting this around on a football message board, where we are either diehard football fans, shut-ins or crackpots. This would not fly with the general public, the same way that the NBA's DL didn't fly.

This whole discussion also shoots a big whole into the NCAA football players theory that they are being ripped off by the colleges. Presumably, a NFL minor league would have a higher quality of football than the colleges do, yet no one here thinks that the, say, Altoona Eagles could get 110,000 fans to a game the way that the Nittany Lions do 25 miles away.

That's because when you consider the actual market, people are paying to come see their alma mater play, or else they have a state affiliation, or else they simply live nearby. The players are really interchangeable. Sure, some of the players are indeed being ripped off. I'm sure people paid huge money to USC to go see Reggie Bush play, but the Reggie Bush's are few and far between. These players would not be money makers without the college affiliation. As Altoona Eagles, hardly anyone would come to ee them play, and the NFL would lose big money on a minor league.

Maybe they should consider doing what they do in Rugby leagues around the world. Have a B game precede the A game on Sunday. Have it on Saturday night, have 22 players play, some of them both ways. That would expand rosters to 67 (45 active plus 22).

 

[Oswlek]

I think that there could be market for something like this. Just look at the attendance numbers for arena football.

A big issue that I see that hasn't been mentioned yet is the timing of the season. Obviously the NFL's offseason would be the best time for something like this, but that would mean that guys who were trying to make an NFL roster would be involved in an active league year round. Without an offseason to heal and work on conditioning as well as areas of your game, it would be very difficult for the players to leverage the league into a stepping stone to the NFL.

Trying to have it play along side of the NFL creates other issues as well, considering that some teams regularly don't sell out.

 

[PatsFan37]

Presumably, a NFL minor league would have a higher quality of football than the colleges do, yet no one here thinks that the, say, Altoona Eagles could get 110,000 fans to a game the way that the Nittany Lions do 25 miles away.

That's because when you consider the actual market, people are paying to come see their alma mater play, or else they have a state affiliation, or else they simply live nearby. The players are really interchangeable.

Upstater, you have some good points, but I disagree with the conclusion. First, anyone starting a new sports league has to be able to bankroll some number of years while that league builds its affiliation. I'm sure it's not all Penn State alums, but area residents that see Penn State as their team. If a farm team truly fed the major league team, so we could root for Bam Childress and Oscar Lua while they battled their equivalents from the Newark Jets, then the affiliation would build.

I believe we root for players as well as laundry. That's one reason the league works so hard, in the announcing booth and in the press, to manufacture heroes. The farm team will never make as much money as the NFL team, but if we can follow players' careers as they move up from one to the other, it gives us a reason to watch the games. Especially if they're on a Wednesday night when the alternative is yet another dumbed-down game show.

To be successful, the farm team has to feed the NFL team, has to be identified with a particular NFL team, to draw off that affiliation, and has to be bankrolled under the NFL team.

Alternatively, an entirely different small-city league might field teams where players are not 'owned' by an NFL team. I believe they'd have to build their small local affiliations over time and could not expect a fraction of the success of the NFL. They would have to schedule their season in the NFL off-season and have an entirely different cost structure based on local broadcasting and ticket sales, like the AFL. Problem is, that business model has been tried and hasn't proven effective, but that might be because of other flaws (like those ridiculous arena football rules).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

...where we are either diehard football fans, shut-ins or crackpots.

You've been peeking in my windows again! Bad upstater1!

 

[PATSNUTme]

Back in the 60's there were "minor" league teams. The Providence Steamrollers and the Portland Seahawks were two of the teams that I remember as a kid.

Those were good players playing good games. Maybe the teams keep their PS and the "minor" leagues are filled with FA's who just missed making rosters.

 

[PatsFan37]

The one thing that makes football different than basketball and especially baseball, is no player who is good enough to play in the NFL wants to spend a year in the minors risking injury. So you'd rarely see an NFL-quality athlete in a minor league game.

What might help a minor league work, at the expense of the NCAA, would be to allow an NFL team to draft into its farm team a year or two earlier (college freshman and sophomores) than otherwise permitted. The farm team would then consist of 1st and 2nd year players plus an expanded 'practice squad'. Obviously, the top athletes wouldn't graduate from college, but they don't anyway. A player drafted into a farm team would have a much better chance of making it to the majors.

 

[Pats726]

One of the biggest problems is offseason or not....I really think the offseason is the best timing wise when many football fans WOULD LOVE a league, but I do not think this works well for the flow of teams...the reason why NFLE never worked..players NEED an offseason to condition, recoup...Having it WHILE the NFL is playing is better from a team's point of view, but overload of football MAY kill it and prevent it from happening. The logistics MIGHT be a problem..but I think there is a real gap between the college feeder and the pros..some players NEED development. What is teh best way this would happen?? I wonder how BB might answer this? What he thinks is teh best way?
If it could be worked out in a fall/winter league, each team would consist of players from 4 teams....maybe two from AFC/NFC. I really think this is needed...and I think owners wish for it as well.

 

[upstater1]

Well, I'm a skeptic about the market draw of such a league.

But if they're going to take in college-aged players, then you've effectively killed college football. The scale of college ball right now wouldn't survive if the NFL was bleeding it. The whole enterprise would collapse. And then you'd peel off the fans who have sentimental ties to the alma mater, and hope to replace them with fans who are deeply devoted to the pro game (and i mean deeply devoted, because I for one would have very lttile interest in watching these teams play). I'm not saying I have little interest in a minor league. If they can get one going, it could contribute to the level of play in the NFL. But I'm just a skeptic who thinks it would never work.

 

[DaBruinz]

To the People who say that NCAA Football is the "MINOR LEAGUES" of the NFL. No, its not. At no time can a team go an "promote" a player from UT or Miami or OSU, or Michigan to fill in for an injury.

Hockey and Baseball both have minor leagues that are NOT college or, for hockey the Junior leagues of Canada.

I think the idea of a spring league is a great idea. I always thought that NFL Europe was a good idea, though, as others pointed out, run horribly. I mean, how can it have been losing 30 million a year with so few players?

I also agree that small "leagues" like PFK mentioned would be a hit and that you WOULD get fans. I mean, just look at baseball. The Red Sox have 5 minor league teams, I believe. And the Lowell Spinners are usually sold out, even if the Sox are playing at the same time..

When I was in California, I lived down the street from the San Bernadino team. Try going down Rt 66 when they were playing. NOT PRETTY. And I currently live about 5 miles from the Frisco Rough Riders. Wanna know something? People go to see their games all the time. Even when the Rangers are playing (well, that might be a bad example).....

Anyways. I think that if Johnathan Kraft was given over to making a minor league work, he could do it. Especially if he played his cards right and got Mark Cuban involved.

 

[patfanken]

Interesting thread going on here. Let me refine my ideas.

1. The only way this works if the "local team" is actually affiliated with an NFL team. That way the team uses the same terminology, coaches the same techniques, and runs the same offensive and defensive systems as the big team.

2. TC rosters would be expanded to 100 guys. 53 would be allocated to the NFL team, 40 to the minor league team. As guys are cut they are signed to the minor league team. That way they get the benefit of the TC.

3. The seasons would run simultaneously, with the minor league team playing on Wednesday. BTW- Ideally they would use the big club's practice facilities, but practice separately an at different times (like at night). Playing during the football season wouldn't hurt, but help the minor leagues. They would be playing during a time when interest in football is at its highest.

4. The NFL club would designate 10 guys as their PS, and these guys would be elegiable to come up to the big club at a moment's notice.

5. There would be 4 eight team leagues around the country. It would be a 10 game season (which would cut down on injuries) There could be a playoff between the 4 winning teams in each league. Winner's checks would be significant for the players but pocket change for the teams.

6. Guys would be paid $1,500-3,000/wk game checks and they would get a $1,500/mo housing allowance

7. No ticket would be more than $20, with plenty of $5-$15 seats. It would be a great place for future fans to watch an NFL product at a reasonable price.

8. Great place to develop coaches, FO staff, as well as refs. Also a great place to try out any rules changes.

9. No replay

10. However it did occur to me that it might work just as well if the minor league team played its games at the home field of the NFL team. That would save a lot of money and add 5 or 6 more dates as a potential revenue source to a stadium that is rarely used.

Just thinking about the Patriots model. How good would it be for a parent to bring his kids down for a game that he could afford. He and his kids get to go into Gillette and enjoy a decent quality game for less than what it would cost of ONE ticket to the big game. I bet you could easily get 20-30,000 fans easy, and the Pats could concentrate the seating like they do for Revs games/ Its all about the marketing.

OF course there are a million more details to work out, but I definitely think there is a market for it....if it is done correctly. I DO NOT think a minor league where players are dumped and are using different systems would work out.

 

[PatsFan37]

PFK, I like the concept, but I really think the fans would rather see these games in the spring. The minor league team might train with the regular team during the NFL season and provide scouting looks, and when the minor league season starts, some NFL players could be allocated as well as minor league players, with a set of CBA rules that specified a maximum number of games played (or snaps played) during the regular season for a player to be allocated to a minor league season. Or a max number of total games/snaps.

The benefit to an NFL coach is he can have more players in the pipeline who are trained and ready to play in the event of regular season injuries. Another advantage is it makes the draft less of a crap shoot. The disadvantage is that bottom-of-the-roster backups can get injured in minor league play.

The benefit to players is a larger roster for the marginal players and opportunities for more coaching and live action to show their stuff.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

My first reaction was to write the suggestion off with something flip like "I thought that's what the NCAA was."

But, in thinking about it, I believe that the real reason this will never succeed is that the Owners would never allow it.

The NFL today is an economic anomaly. 32 Owners are getting even richer than they were when they bought their Franchises as a result of a hard Salary Cap that keeps their costs predictable while they grow their ancillary revenues, while the TV contracts keep increasing and while the availability of low cost financing enables them to build huge stadiums (see Dallas) that are destinations in themselves (see New England). If these owners established a "minor league," people would quickly notice that the quality of play "ain't bad." The next logical question would be, "why are they a 'minor' league, why can't they be a competing league?"

I think the underlying economics of the NFL suggest that it's just a matter of time before a modern day Lamar Hunt starts a competing league, with the intention of merging with the NFL in five to ten years, and making a half dozen or so investors very rich again. There are so many (really, really) rich folks in the US today, that I think this is inevitable. The current owners will experience some dilution initially, but in the end the pie will grow for everyone. If there is on the field talent and a viewing market, I just don't see how you can stop this from happening.

 

[Jimke]

The reason that the minor league is being proposed is quite obvious.

Tie down all available talent to strangle Mark Cuban's new league before

it gets a foothold.

 

[PatsFan37]

If these owners established a "minor league," people would quickly notice that the quality of play "ain't bad." The next logical question would be, "why are they a 'minor' league, why can't they be a competing league?

Consider QB's alone. Brady and Manning and Palmer at the top of the NFL versus Kyle Boller and A.J. Feely and Tim Rattay at the top of the minor leagues. No wait, Boller and Feely and Rattay are on NFL rosters, so you'll have to dig deeper.

The biggest problem the minor league will face in drawing fans will be the quality of play.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Consider QB's alone. Brady and Manning and Palmer at the top of the NFL versus Kyle Boller and A.J. Feely and Tim Rattay at the top of the minor leagues. No wait, Boller and Feely and Rattay are on NFL rosters, so you'll have to dig deeper.

The biggest problem the minor league will face in drawing fans will be the quality of play.

I treated myself to a football fix the other day and watched the last Amsterdam game I had recorded and saved for the dry spell (I hope Barthelmes makes the roster or the Practice Squad again, I loved his nasty streak - especially watching defenders pointing at him all the time). I also watched the World Bowl. Those were NFL quality QBs (well, Drew Olsen looked more like Drew Bledsoe, but that's another issue) playing with a mix of NFL-ready and borderline players. Casey Bramlet could have been the next Chad Pennington - noodle arm, but good head - he put his team in scoring position on each offensive series, can't dislike that in a QB.

The games improve by mid-season after the guys have worked together a bit, the early games were sloppy after limited practice. It's a product worth viewing, however poorly managed the European league appeared to be.

Nice to see Rich Musinski get another shot at the NFL, with the Chargers this time. I was surprised he didn't make the cut with the Pats when they were so strapped last year.

 

[Pats726]

Interesting thread going on here. Let me refine my ideas.

1. The only way this works if the "local team" is actually affiliated with an NFL team. That way the team uses the same terminology, coaches the same techniques, and runs the same offensive and defensive systems as the big team.

2. TC rosters would be expanded to 100 guys. 53 would be allocated to the NFL team, 40 to the minor league team. As guys are cut they are signed to the minor league team. That way they get the benefit of the TC.

3. The seasons would run simultaneously, with the minor league team playing on Wednesday. BTW- Ideally they would use the big club's practice facilities, but practice separately an at different times (like at night). Playing during the football season wouldn't hurt, but help the minor leagues. They would be playing during a time when interest in football is at its highest.

4. The NFL club would designate 10 guys as their PS, and these guys would be elegiable to come up to the big club at a moment's notice.

5. There would be 4 eight team leagues around the country. It would be a 10 game season (which would cut down on injuries) There could be a playoff between the 4 winning teams in each league. Winner's checks would be significant for the players but pocket change for the teams.

6. Guys would be paid $1,500-3,000/wk game checks and they would get a $1,500/mo housing allowance

7. No ticket would be more than $20, with plenty of $5-$15 seats. It would be a great place for future fans to watch an NFL product at a reasonable price.

8. Great place to develop coaches, FO staff, as well as refs. Also a great place to try out any rules changes.

9. No replay

10. However it did occur to me that it might work just as well if the minor league team played its games at the home field of the NFL team. That would save a lot of money and add 5 or 6 more dates as a potential revenue source to a stadium that is rarely used.

Just thinking about the Patriots model. How good would it be for a parent to bring his kids down for a game that he could afford. He and his kids get to go into Gillette and enjoy a decent quality game for less than what it would cost of ONE ticket to the big game. I bet you could easily get 20-30,000 fans easy, and the Pats could concentrate the seating like they do for Revs games/ Its all about the marketing.

OF course there are a million more details to work out, but I definitely think there is a market for it....if it is done correctly. I DO NOT think a minor league where players are dumped and are using different systems would work out.

I like it...I would send that to Mike Florio of Pro Footnall Talk...I am sure there are many that have ideas on a minor league. And NO I do not think this is about a new league and strangling it..the talk on PFT is that this will happen after that league comes and goes..and is more about true development of players..I eally wonder though about EACH franchise having a team..how viable money wise THAT is..but I love the idea of that.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I'll leave it to the marketing wizzes to decide whether there is a market for such a league.

From my own personal perch, I cannot see it being otherwise. Look around this board. We're drawing a thousand a night to TALK ABOUT a sport that ISN'T EVEN BEING PLAYED!

I think things have changed significantly since NFLE (or the WorldLAF, as it began) first played. America is football crazy.

I would trade the Wednesday in-season idea for the spring idea, just to have a way to continue to follow football after the Super Bowl (and God help us, the Pro Bowl.)

The injury risk, again, is a non-issue, for anybody who would not have a shot at the NFL otherwise. Similarly, a guy "sent down" to the minors would retain his NFL contract. So, it's a risk of injury against (putatively) slower, weaker players, or stronger, faster players. Either way, you get the same check. That keeps it in the team's interest to fish or cut bait with the veteran guys.

I think 3 things are necessary for this to be a HUGE draw:

1) NFL affiliation. E.g., the Pawtucket Patriots.
2) Realistic possibility of advancement to the NFL.
3) ESPN, NFLN, and/or other network interest.

20 bucks a head for 50,000 fans is a million bucks. Remember how the "super bowl" for the XFL was the "million dollar game"? Think about it. currently the players get around 60% of NFL revenue. I don't know for sure how costs would scale from the NFL to the minor league; you don't need to rent a huge megastadium, for instance; but of course, the gate is lower.

Let's say an average NFL minors contract is 100K per annum. Let's say 50 guys get paid. That's 5 million per year in payroll. Let's say they take up 60% of gross, like in the NFL (doubtful, if networks get on board.) That means the grand total take is 12 million per team per year. If you get 50,000 fans at 20 bucks a head, you can get that just on gate. Obviously, the network contract(s) is/are very important, because that puts you on the "razor's edge" without network money. WITH network money, you can scale back gate expectations to more like 30,000 fans. Sort of in the range of American soccer in most markets.

So we're back to would people watch it -- which is what drives TV contracts. So you tell me: it's March 1. Maybe there's snow on the ground. The Pawtucket Pats are playing the Baton Rouge Saints. There's a "minor" fantasy league in play. The Pats have Bam Childress in at wideout, and there's talk about him making the "real" team. Gutierez is at QB. Lua is a linebacker. You really don't want to know how these guys do?

Or maybe it's not them. Maybe Alexander is in at LB, and you're seeing improvement that might just translate. Whatever.

Either way, there's Patriots football on on Sunday -- just not the REAL Patriots. Except some of them might become REAL.

You're telling me you just go ho-hum, I am watching golf, or the little league world series? Hell, I'd watch this game before I'd watch NCAA basketball. But that's just me.

How about you guys? Would you watch it?

PFnV

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

How about you guys? Would you watch it?

PFnV

Yup.

......