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A Challenge To Conservatives and Liberals

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInMaine, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. PatsFanInMaine

    PatsFanInMaine Rookie

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    Reflecting back upon the Holidays many of you may have given something charitable to those less fortunate. Many of those with the ability to give have given over the Holidays and now comes a lull in the amount of charity given to needy causes. However, the need is still there, perhaps the need is even greater with the full on sought of winter. Now is a good time consider a donation to your local food banks. Food comes in handy now as families disposable incomes are used towards energy needs. Items such as Mac & Cheese, Spaghetti, Tuna, Ect… can be bought in quantity inexpensively. Check with you local food banks and see if the accept non food items also. With longer nights light bulbs do not last as long. Personnel hygiene items are another staple in need. Throughout our nations rich history ordinary citizens have stepped forward and done extraordinary things for others in need. Let the start of 2006 continue this unselfish tradition.


    God Bless and Take Care.
  2. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Great Non-Partisan Post!
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is nice, one of the things my sisters and I do now, instead of buying stuff for each other. We buy christmas dinners for native americans through the south west indian foundation. We all have enough stuff in our homes and it makes things a lot simpler and imo a lot better for all.
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, that's very nice, especially coming from the kind of Republican who supports cuts in programs that help the poor. Maybe people can also offer to pay doctors bills for kids who don't have health insurance.
  5. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Oh well, we almost had a decent discussion without some a-hole throwing some crap all over it. Thanks Patters. That was very small-minded.

    Great post, PFIM. This country needs more individual charity and real acts of kindness. We used to be really good at it. I also like the more anonymous and humble type of charity you describe without the urge to "write it off".
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    THERE ARE MANY FAMILIES UP HERE WHERE I LIVE THAT DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE (DUE TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN) THEY HAVE "MEDICARE", THEY GET BETTER HEALTH TREATMENT THAN I DO.

    HILLARY WANTED US ALL TO GO THE DOCTOR OF "HER CHOICE", THE PEOPLE SOUNDLY REJECTED HER.

    CANADA HAS THE FREE STUFF DOESN'T IT, THE HOSPITAL IN LEWISTON MAINE IS FULL OF PEOPLE THAT COME DOWN HERE TO GET THEIR "BYPASSES". WHY?
  7. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Let's nip this discussion right now. The original post is excellent, thank you.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry, Wistah, but I don't think the right-wing has any right to some sort of moral highground on this issue. I give, I respect those who give, but I also know the policies of the Republicans and the right-wing hurt the poor very much. As far as I'm concerned, posts like PFIM's are self-gratifying grandstanding. Or are you, thanks to that post, giving more than you otherwise would? Do you think anyone is?
  9. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    I can't believe you guys are politicizing something like this, and continuing even after it's been brought to your attention.

    Shame on wistahpatsfan, shame on Harry Boy, and shame on Patters.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, Pujo, you're wrong. This is a political forum, and posts should be read in that context. After all, the challenge was issued to "liberals and conservatives." The Republicans introduced the oxymoron "compassionate conservative," and much of America fell for it. That's exactly what I think of this thread. If you want to help the needy, give by all means, but also support candidates who have programs that provide health care, housing, and education to kids. Had PFIM's post been put in the general forum, I doubt if it would have been treated as political.
  11. JLC

    JLC Rookie

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    Ditto, Pujo.
    I'd land a little harder on the mod who took this into the sewer, though.
  12. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Nah, the first nasty response wasn't just political, it was a personal attack. Actually, stuff like that doesn't belong in any thread on this forum, but especially this one. Some things are above politics. The post was presumabely made here to reach the people in ths group, many of whom don't read the general forum.

    It's like when the Red Cross comes looking for blood, you don't berate the Red Cross nurse for how she voted.

    I stand by my comments.
  13. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Sorry individuals are much better at charity than the Government, we are a giving society just look at recent disasters, so we don't need politicians to tax us to death and than half of it doesn't make to who should/needs to get it.
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Nice post PFIM.
  15. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Obviously, thats a major diff between conservatives and liberals, Patters. Liberals trust the government to distribute the wealth, but as we learn from history, they aren't very good at doing it and typically take a hefty chunk for their administration of the program- leaving relatively little left over. Its usually better to give directly to your community or well researched orgs whenever possible.

    Where to draw the line on government spending is the issue. I personally would stop subsidizing the hell out of oil industry, but thats another thread.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with you, AAB, but there are at least two types of conservatives: those who don't trust government and those who are simply cheap. On this site, for instance, we see that the majority of conservatives want to give government unlimited powers to wiretap, arrest, even torture and kidnap, regardless of the economic or moral cost. So, they obviously, but are still unwilling to trust government with regard to helping the poor, which makes me think that they're simply selfish.

    As far as government mismanagement, sure it happens, but it happens a lot less now than in the 1980s when the issue really surfaced. As I've said before the advantage of government is that it's open. It's a lot harder to abuse the system when the public has access to all the records and information. Private enterprises can keep much of their information secret, so we don't hear of their corruption as much.

    I think government is more honest than businesses of any type for the simple reason that government has Americans working for it just like business does, but government is also much more open. It's a lot easier to get caught if you work for the government.
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Since the thread has changed thanks to you, Patters,

    What makes you say all these things? We all pay income tax (except for the super rich) and that is how the government makes its money. If you don't pay them what they want, whether or not you get anything for it, then they either take your stuff, freedom or life away. Then they take the money and waste it on war, corporate subsidies and debt service. It's like giving a junkie $20 and expecting them to give you back $20 someday. The government derives its power nowadays by all that waste coupled with the threat of prison or death on the people.

    Please explain what makes you trust the government so much.
  18. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    Liberals trust the government to educate children even when at odds with parental values, right perceived social wrongs and to confiscate earnings from producers to distribute to politically favored non-producers. They (recently at least) do not trust the govt to defend the country.

    I trust the government to defend the country and to keep peace locally (crime).
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The way I see it, we have to trust someone. We have to trust business, our neighbors, government, whoever, but to live a society, you have to have some trust. But to quote Reagan, trust but verify -- only government is open enough to be verified, and I think it should be even more open. In fact, during the impeachment of Clinton, one of the few things I supported the right-wing on was when they filed suit to force the government to provide documents and other information. I don't understand why Cheney's energy committee was able to stay so secretive.

    Now as far as government abusing the money, well so does business. Just look at the salaries and the cozy arrangements between corporate officers and board members. Just look at all the white collar fraud that has come up in the last few years. And, again, the problem with business is they can be much more secretive, so I would bet an very small percent of their crimes are uncovered.

    Also, there needs to be an institution that can compete with the power of business, and government is the appropriate one. With smaller government, business would get away with far more damage to the environment and many more white collar crimes. Without strong government, business would be even more unchecked then it is now.
  20. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    There is another way to keep businesses in check, even without a "strong" government, based on tort principles. When a business, say, pollutes, and that pollution crosses onto your property, the business has committed the tort of tresspass and is liable for damages. Without a strong government to limit jury awards (let's all remember who the strong government actually works for - those same busnesses it should be keeping in check), a couple large verdicts could bankrupt a business that refused to clean up its act.

    It would certainly be a radical change from the current system.

    Edit: I didn't realize what thread this was when I posted. Guess I should take my own advice. Pujo's a hypocrite!
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006

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