Welcome to PatsFans.com

A Bold Plan Sweeps Away Reagan Ideas

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,654
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/b...l=1&adxnnlx=1235736116-KAm 6GAMWT 7Pmgc7kTt/Q

    The budget that President Obama proposed on Thursday is nothing less than an attempt to end a three-decade era of economic policy dominated by the ideas of Ronald Reagan and his supporters.

    The Obama budget — a bold, even radical departure from recent history, wrapped in bureaucratic formality and statistical tables — would sharply raise taxes on the rich, beyond where Bill Clinton had raised them. It would reduce taxes for everyone else, to a lower point than they were under either Mr. Clinton or George W. Bush....

    More than anything else, the proposals seek to reverse the rapid increase in economic inequality over the last 30 years. They do so first by rewriting the tax code and, over the longer term, by trying to solve some big causes of the middle-class income slowdown, like high medical costs and slowing educational gains.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1
    (By the liberal Nobel prize winning economist, Paul Krugman.)

    Elections have consequences. President Obama’s new budget represents a huge break, not just with the policies of the past eight years, but with policy trends over the past 30 years. If he can get anything like the plan he announced on Thursday through Congress, he will set America on a fundamentally new course.

    ...

    But won’t the deficit be swollen by interest on the debt run-up over the next few years? Not as much as you might think. Interest rates on long-term government debt are less than 4 percent, so even a trillion dollars of additional debt adds less than $40 billion a year to future deficits. And those interest costs are fully reflected in the budget documents.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  2. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Thanks for the post. Sad day in America. Repeating the mistakes of the Great Depression.

    This hyper-overspending will lead to a prolonged recession (possibly depression), loss of jobs, companies folding, higher taxes, and a bloated government.

    Here is the link to the text you cut/pasted:
    A Bold Plan Sweeps Away Reagan Ideas
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  3. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,654
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    But, many people say that Roosevelt's mistake was not to spend enough. Only WWII allowed him to increase deficit spending to a level that truly ended the Depression. What's interesting is that Obama's plan does not nearly increase our deficit, as a percent of GDP, to the level that ended the Great Depression. See the charts:

    United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For the record, I was never against deficit spending, though I was against what Bush and Reagan deficit spent on. I favor deficit spending to help Americans, rather than to help Iraqis, Granadans, Nicaraguans, Afghanis, etc., though I'm certainly for humanitarian aid.
  5. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    17,242
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +20 / 3 / -0

    #91 Jersey

    Are you rich IJ? If not don't worry about it. You may actually come to like not being among the group thats been taken advantage of for 30 years.......From.A kinder flex
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,345
    Likes Received:
    123
    Ratings:
    +255 / 8 / -9

    #24 Jersey

    Whether it will cause someone's taxes to go up is not relevant to many people. I'm not "rich" and I won't pay more taxes if Obama holds to his $250K number; which I doubt he will. But that doesn't mean I like the plan. Like ljuneau, I don't think it will work regardless of whether I'm the one paying for it. Regarding being part of the group that been taken advantage of, believe it if you want but the horrible rich people still pay most of the income tax whatever the Dems like to believe.
  7. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    But most economists agree it was government's attempts at controlling the market that prolonged the Great Depression. I've read many books on this period of history, most point to government controls. The FDR did many radical things in the 1930's, some that make Obama look like Reagan. But I see us headed right back in that direction.

    Regarding GDP:
  8. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,285
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +89 / 31 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    WOW, so you work hard and succeed, and now you’re the devil. You know that this bill will not affect the Kennedy's and Kerry's of the world, whose money is already stashed in tax shelters. It is of course going to affect the entrepreneurs of this country (you know, the ones who give people JOBS!!)

    Does anyone really think that this is going to work? Anyone who has any honestly (which of course removes the NY Times) can tell you that the math doesn't add up. The wealthy will simply move there money out of the US, which will result in lower revenues than the government, has now. With Obama printing money that he has no intentions or even a snowballs chance in hell of ever paying back, inflation is sure to follow. I hope y'all enjoy your extra 13 bucks a week, because that is what a gallon of milk is going to cost you.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  9. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    No, very middle class. Live in a small town in TN (originally from ME). I'm not worried about my taxes being increased, I'm worried about how taxing the rich will implode economic growth, how the bloating deficits will affect my children, and how our country will recover economically.
  10. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2006
    Messages:
    17,242
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +20 / 3 / -0

    #91 Jersey

    I think the rich play plenty. I also think they aren't paying there share.If your that rich you can hire lawyers accountants etc. to find loop holes (like off shore banks to hide your money) Or Switzerland we just got UBS to give us the names of 50,000 residents of this country stashing money in that bank they didn't pay taxes on.
  11. STFarmy

    STFarmy Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    You're probably referring to The Forgotten Man by Amity Shlaes. I haven't read it yet; if you have, how is it? Also, from what I understand there is a study done by the University of California at Berkeley that supports the hypothesis that FDR's spending lengthened the Great Depression. I have yet to check it out, however, so I don't know exactly what it says.

    I've NEVER heard anyone say that FDR didn't spend enough. That sounds like crazy talk to me.
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,345
    Likes Received:
    123
    Ratings:
    +255 / 8 / -9

    #24 Jersey

    Of course, what "their share" should be will be different for all people. But yours is a tough argument to make :

    http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess Who Really Pays the Taxes.jpg

    The top 1% make 19% of the income and pay 37% of the income tax.
    The top 5% make 33% of the income and pay 57% of the income tax.

    If that's not their fair share in your opinion then so be it but those are the numbers (from 2004, the numbers have actually moved towards the rich paying a slightly higher part of the total since then).
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  13. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,285
    Likes Received:
    36
    Ratings:
    +89 / 31 / -3

    #75 Jersey


    http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/reports/factsheetwhopaysmostindividualincometaxes.update.pdf

    The top 1% ALREADY PAY 40% OF ALL THE INCOME TAX COLLECTED.

    The top 5% pay 54% of all the income tax collected.

    and the top 50% OF ALL WAGE EARNERS PAY ALL THE TAXES, so already over half the country DOES NOT PAY INCOME TAX, and Now Obama wants to give them more money!!!! This is an absolute move towards Marxism!!!

    What you guys fail to realize, is that these "evil" rich people, pay your salary!!! What happens when they stop hiring new people, stop buying new homes, cars, clothes?? Are they going to be adveresly effected? No, The people whose jobs depend on them are!!!!
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,654
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    I think the general view is that the Depression ended because of the increased availability of credit, not the government's control of the market. After all, production I think had recovered to 1929 levels by the end of the 30s, even with the recession that hit in 1938.

    I also think that economic policies need to be dynamic. There is not one set of rules that can work for the US forever. Liberalism of the 1930s is different than that of the 1960s and will be still different today. Obama's proposals will be informed by what preceded them, including Reaganomics. The challenge for Obama is to reintroduce liberalism in a way that people like. I think if the economic decline is reversed, people get health insurance, alternative energy becomes a reality, and only the wealthy see their taxes increased, that Americans will be quite pleased.
  15. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,345
    Likes Received:
    123
    Ratings:
    +255 / 8 / -9

    #24 Jersey

    There is an amazing irony when people yell at "big business" when most people work for a "big business". Talk about trying to bite the hand that (literally) feeds you.
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    38,887
    Likes Received:
    120
    Ratings:
    +303 / 1 / -9

    I Have Never Worked For A Poor Man

    If I Worked Hard All My LIfe And Became A Rich Man I Would Now Leave My America.

    America Has It's First Dictator Rising
  17. BSR

    BSR Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Do you think someone making $250k a year is stashing all their extra money away in tax shelters with the help of fancy lawyers and accountants?

    This plan is a disaster in the making.
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,654
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    Anyone earning over $250k who is not using tax shelters and accountants is stupid in my opinion. Our tax code is designed to encourage investment by creating tax shelters, and accountants are often the one's who best understand the tax implications of those shelters. As far as using lawyers, I would think that many people who earn $250k or more a year, are using lawyers to put money in trust.
  19. BSR

    BSR Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    You have a very skewed sense of what a person making $251k a year actually has in disposable income. People making $251k a year aren't stashing away money in Swiss bank accounts.

    The household making $250k to $500k a year doesn't really have that much of a different life then the household in the $80k to $250k bracket. They might live in a better neighborhood, drive a better car, save more in their IRAs and 529 plans, and some extra electronics but thats about it. Its not like a tax to them is making them spend some ficticious pile of money they are hording and investing in gold toilet seats. The tax is going directly against their discretionary spending and hence coming directly out of the economy.
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    17,654
    Likes Received:
    113
    Ratings:
    +142 / 1 / -4

    That's not a tax shelter. A 401K, a Roth IRA, etc. are tax shelters. Hiding money in Swiss bank accounts is tax fraud.

    I understand that in places like Boston, $250k is not an enormous sum of money, but I also know that those who earn that much each year are in very good shape, and are more likely to benefit from economic growth than those who earn less. If you earn $250k and the market recovers, chances are you'll benefit disproportionately more than someone who earns $100k and can't afford to put as much into his 401k, etc.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>