A Bills fan with an example of what seperates the Patriots from his team

[upstater1]

OK, the Bills offensive line is new. 3 guys on it that you've never seen play, and only one guy that was on it last year, but he's not playing the same position. What do you think about the Bills o-line?

I have no idea who is on the Bills O-Line. I don't even care. And I have seen all of the Patriots defensive backfield play. All of them. Four of them are proven commodities in Springs and Bodden, and then we have two solid starters in Sanders and Meriweather, with Meriwether being a budding star. Behind them we have several rookies and high draft choices in Chung, Butler, Wilhite and Wheatley. Do you watch the Patriots? These guys are not a mystery.

Over 36% of your defense is brand new based on losing Harrison, Vrabel, Seymour, and Bruschi alone. Add to that your "new" secondary, and we are talking what percentage of your defense? Losing those four guys is huge, and it's going to reorganize the very face of your defense. You're right, I don't know it's going to bad, but I can't say it's going to be good either; it's going to be different. Four huge leaders of the defense being gone is not going to be inconsequential.

You must not watch the Patriots much if you're talking about the loss of Harrison, Bruschi and Vrabel. How much do you think these three played the last couple of years? Are you thinking about 2006?

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, but...

Vrabel 2001-2008
Harrison 2003-2008
Bruschi - 13 years
Seymour – 2001-2008

We're talking about what was the solid foundation of the defense for years...gone in a heartbeat. The secondary is unproven. I'm not trying to say anything bad here, but I just don't understand how you could brush that off so easily.

How can you say a secondary with Meriwether, Sanders, Bodden and Springs is unproven? That's just crazy. Meriwether will be our best player back there, Bodden and Springs are proven, whereas sanders has been starting for us for years.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

How can you say a secondary with Meriwether, Sanders, Bodden and Springs is unproven? That's just crazy. Meriwether will be our best player back there, Bodden and Springs are proven, whereas sanders has been starting for us for years.

Bodden and Springs are proven to have some good years with DIFFERENT teams but obviously are not proven they can work and exist as one solid unit until we see what they can combine for- Thats where they are unproven players.,Actually all 4 must prove they can work consistently and communcate well together and be on the same page - Rodney is no longer here to keep things 'organized' back there - The secondary has a lot to prove as one unit and we will see how they fare in 4 days.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Your band-aid analogy works if Bruschi/Harrison/Vrabel were pulling their weight on the field. Losing them would "hurt" and would require "surgery" and not a band-aid. That just wasn't the case. It was more like replacing worn parts in your engine. It may take a while to get it dialed in just right, but the car will run better than if you did nothing. Better...not just different. You can complain about the players replacing Bruschi, Harrison and Vrabel...it is just not credible to suggest that they didn't need to be replaced.

Your "it's no big deal" attitude would only work if you have proven players to fill in the gaps. Like I said before, it's a question of identity as well, which can't be overlooked. The entire defense has to redefine itself. Besides, Bruschi and Harrison retired; are you going to suggest that they would have been replaced had they not retired? Vrabel was in the Pro Bowl a year and a half ago. Seymour is STILL a beast...I understand looking long term by trading him, but that's not to say he won't be missed. There is a reason why you got a first rounder for him.

BTW, Adalius Thomas is older than Seymour if I'm not mistaken. How do you feel about picking up Fred Taylor? He's 33...and a half.

The Pats have 2 leaders at the top of the food chain...Brady and Belichick. The leaders fall under Brady and they all fall under Belichick. As for losing leadership, who is the leader of the defense going forward? Clearly that is Mayo. AD, Warren, Meriweather, Sanders, Wilfork (with a new contract)...are you saying none of them are ready for a bigger role in the locker room?

Brady doesn't play defense...neither does Belichick, for that matter. You have a point about Mayo, Warren, and Wilfork, though. Those guys are good, as is Thomas for the time being. Sanders and Meriweather are more up in the air...in fact, the Patriots secondary doesn't exactly scare anyone at this time...although it reamains to be seen how this unit is going to work together this year.

 

[mgteich]

I agree, although it may take half a season to get on the same page, but that's fine. I also consider McGowan a proven commodity since he has also started for another team. Of course, he is a backup. But still this could a solid nucleus by mid-season. And that doesn't count production from any of the kids.

How can you say a secondary with Meriwether, Sanders, Bodden and Springs is unproven? That's just crazy. Meriwether will be our best player back there, Bodden and Springs are proven, whereas sanders has been starting for us for years.

 

[Metaphors]

Your "it's no big deal" attitude would only work if you have proven players to fill in the gaps. Like I said before, it's a question of identity as well, which can't be overlooked. The entire defense has to redefine itself. Besides, Bruschi and Harrison retired; are you going to suggest that they would have been replaced had they not retired? Vrabel was in the Pro Bowl a year and a half ago.

That is the part where we disagree. Bruschi and Harrison had to be replaced. Absolutely, no doubt about it. Don't care when Vrabel was in the Pro Bowl, he was a non-entity in the passing defense last year. He needed to go as well. You can disagree. It's all good.

So what does Mayo (Bruschi), AD (Vrabel) and Sanders (Harrison) need to do to "prove" themselves? Taking position leadership out of the equation, how much more "proving" does Warren, Green and Wilfork have to do? This team is loaded with field and locker room leaders. That aspect will not be redefined. Same song, different singers.

 

[Patspsycho]

You must not watch the Patriots much if you're talking about the loss of Harrison, Bruschi and Vrabel. How much do you think these three played the last couple of years? Are you thinking about 2006?

Uncle Meat is not a Patriots fan, he's a Bills fan.

 

[Patspsycho]

And aptly named I might add.. considering what we do to them year in, year out.

 

[Uncle Meat]

And aptly named I might add.. considering what we do to them year in, year out.

Hello, there. My name is Uncle Meat.

What you said would make sense if my name was Aunt Vagina.

 

[Patspsycho]

Hello, there. My name is Uncle Meat.

What you said would make sense if my name was Aunt Vagina.

Did that for so long it got boring.

 

[patsfan-1982]

I was reading an article by a Bills fan yesterday who was saying that he was tired of trying to compare his Bills team to the Patriots because as of late he simply can't do that.

He relates his reason as in a similar situation like the current trade of Seymour to Oakland - He goes back to two years ago when Buffalo had a similar situation like the following ....
In 2007 The Bills had just signed Kelsay to a big offer sheet and Aaron Schoebel was the next big signing to come up as his contract was to end following the 07 season,Aaron was 29 at the time and turning 30 shortly afterwards just like Seymour but here is the difference between the two teams...the Bills had a chance to let Schoebel go at a high trade value at that time,but instead risked years of cap problems by giving Aaron a 7 year $50M contract when they could have simply traded him away while he still had a career ahead of him and stocked up on draft picks but they decided not to- The next season which was 2008 and Aaron after getting the big money unfortunately got injured and went on the injury list missing most of the season,the Bills fan realizes that now Aaron is going to be 32 and probably does not have a lot left in the tank and expects him to be a $50M average DE for the rest of his career,He wishes the team back then did what BB did now and realizes that his organization is not as smart as NEs which is why he no longer can compare anything about his team and the smarter one in NE - He has thrown in the white towel you might say.

This is just one example how fans from rival teams cannot stand the Patriots but truly respect them and thier smarts...and I think the Seymour trade was as smart as can be,especially when you see what screw ups other teams do.

Not saying Schoebel will be just an average DE now but definately should never have received a new $50M 7 year contract at 30 years of age.

the bulls did not trade Schoebel because he was averaging like 12 sacks a season a DE like that is hard to replace they did not know he would get hurt and never relly be the same player

as far as seymour go's i dont think that BB would have trade him if they had the LB to play the 3-4 full time

but because they are going to play the 4-3 seymour would be a DT they all redy have brace and wilfork so they can get by without him so why not get a first round pick

 

[Uncle Meat]

That is the part where we disagree. Bruschi and Harrison had to be replaced. Absolutely, no doubt about it. Don't care when Vrabel was in the Pro Bowl, he was a non-entity in the passing defense last year. He needed to go as well. You can disagree. It's all good.

So what does Mayo (Bruschi), AD (Vrabel) and Sanders (Harrison) need to do to "prove" themselves? Taking position leadership out of the equation, how much more "proving" does Warren, Green and Wilfork have to do? This team is loaded with field and locker room leaders. That aspect will not be redefined. Same song, different singers.

Look, all I'm trying to say is that the Patriots have what, six new starters on defense? That's over half the defense and a major overhaul. It'll be interesting to see how the new defense works as a unit. If nothing else, chemistry will be an issue at least at first. Whether or not a couple of few of these players needed to go is sort of beside the point; they've been staples of the Pats D for years, well respected in team meetings, practice, etc. The bottom line is that we've not seen this defense yet...not really.

The Patriots get six new starters on defense, nobody seems to blink an eye and assumes they will be just as good, at least eventually. The Bills get six new starters on offense, and people assume they are putrid. The reality is that it's not so much of a given how the Bills offense will match up to the Patriots defense, especially in week 1. 12 out of the 22 guys on the field will be new starters for their teams...then Marshawn Lynch is suspended, which adds another question mark, although Freddie Jackson did start against New England when Lynch was hurt last year and did very well.

 

[Synovia]

Not saying Schoebel will be just an average DE now but definately should never have received a new $50M 7 year contract at 30 years of age.

Didn't we just give a 30 year old Adalius Thomas a 6 year deal? Aren't we about to give, what will be a 29 year old Vince Wilfork, a huge deal?

 

[Synovia]

The Patriots get six new starters on defense, nobody seems to blink an eye and assumes they will be just as good, at least eventually..

Theres a huge difference in the coaching of the Bills and Patriots, and thats a huge part of the difference in perception.

Theres also a huge difference in the quality of player. New England's new starters seem to all be proven players. Theres a huge difference between Shawn Springs, and starting a rookie 7th rounder at LT.

 

[Synovia]

You must not watch the Patriots much if you're talking about the loss of Harrison, Bruschi and Vrabel. How much do you think these three played the last couple of years? Are you thinking about 2006?

Bruschi, Vrabel and Harrison were all essentially gone last year. Bruschi was the 3rd best ILB behind Mayo and Guyton. Vrable was the 3rd best OLB behind Thomas and Woods. Harrison played in 6 games, and Sanders and Merriweather were both better then him.


If you wanted to talk about them replacing starters, it was last year. Guyton, Mayo, Merriweather, Sanders, Woods, etc are all returning starters at this point.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The Patriots are going to miss Seymour for the next couple of years at least. He is still a great player. Who knows what they are going to get for the #1 pick in exchange? Nobody this year, that's for sure.

The Patriots have lost Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, and Vrabel this year. That's over 36% of your defense, all seasoned veterans and leaders...strong players and strong team players. That's a huge part of the backbone of the defense. You can't just put a band-aid on that. The Patriots' secondary isn't the best. You've got a huge number of first and second round picks the next couple of seasons, but they ain't all gonna hit.

IMO, the Patriot defense is going to take a big step back this year. The offense should be awesome, though, and they should still very well be contenders.

I definitely agree with your point Re: 2009. People will see how much losing Seymour means *this year* in a hurry. Seymour played a low-visibility position, so it was easy to overlook his contributions (as many people clearly did), but it will be pretty difficult to overlook the effect that it'll have on the defense with him gone.

As far as the draft pick being a question mark point, though, I honestly don't think it is. Looking back at Belichick's track record, the Pats just don't miss on first-rounders. First rounders never fail because of talent; when they flame out, it's either due to injury or work ethic/personality. The Pats simply don't pick anyone whose personality and work ethic are even remotely questionable. They'd rather take the 'inferior' talent if necessary, as they did when they traded down and still 'reached' for Mayo rather than staying put and taking Gholston or Keith Rivers (who I think will be awesome, but the point stands). And whatever injury risk there is for a 23 year old kid coming out of college, the risk will be greater for a 31 year old Seymour, who will have 10 years of getting double-teamed in the trenches on him.

Basically, when the Pats pick in the first round, you're getting anything from a solid starter (Maroney, Watson) to a pro bowler (Warren, Wilfork, Meriweather, etc) to a potential Hall of Famer (Seymour). That's pretty much the range, and the only wildcard is injury.

 

[Synovia]

They'd rather take the 'inferior' talent if necessary, as they did when they traded down and still 'reached' for Mayo rather than staying put and taking Gholston or Keith Rivers (who I think will be awesome, but the point stands).

I think thats something that people don't realize, and why the Pats, Colts, Steelers, etc, don't blow first rounders.


They draft for a player's FLOOR, and not his ceiling. IE, if theres a chance the guy will never be a starter, hes not getting drafted. They don't care if he could be the best to ever play the game, what they care, is what hes going to contribute.

Later round picks are where they shoot for the stars and draft upside guys.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Theres a huge difference in the coaching of the Bills and Patriots, and thats a huge part of the difference in perception.

Theres also a huge difference in the quality of player. New England's new starters seem to all be proven players. Theres a huge difference between Shawn Springs, and starting a rookie 7th rounder at LT.

I understand the perception, and I'm certainly not going to try to argue that it's wrong. Coaching is huge...and BTW, the Patriots lost some coaches as well, although they still have BB.

But being picked in the 7th round doesn't necessarily say anthing about the player...look where Brady was picked...James Harrison went undrafted...there is a huge list there. Demetrius Bell is a guy that most people haven't heard of, so they assume things about him. The Bills got who a lot of people considered the best two Guards in the draft, and the oline is a place where rookies can come straight in and play well at. T.O. is as proven as they come as a player. The Bills replaced their tight end, Robert Royal, and it'll be an upgrade no matter who is in there, believe me...same thing with our Center position; it's an upgrade no matter which way you look at it. The two Centers we used last year both got cut by the teams that picked them up.

 

[upstater1]

Bodden and Springs are proven to have some good years with DIFFERENT teams but obviously are not proven they can work and exist as one solid unit until we see what they can combine for- Thats where they are unproven players.,Actually all 4 must prove they can work consistently and communcate well together and be on the same page - Rodney is no longer here to keep things 'organized' back there - The secondary has a lot to prove as one unit and we will see how they fare in 4 days.

That's like an apples and oranges comparison, though, with the Bills O-Line depth chart. They have four guys who never started, young guys, rookies too.

Completely different ball of wax from guys who have started at least 16 NFL games.

 

[upstater1]

I definitely agree with your point Re: 2009. People will see how much losing Seymour means *this year* in a hurry. Seymour played a low-visibility position, so it was easy to overlook his contributions (as many people clearly did), but it will be pretty difficult to overlook the effect that it'll have on the defense with him gone.

As far as the draft pick being a question mark point, though, I honestly don't think it is. Looking back at Belichick's track record, the Pats just don't miss on first-rounders. First rounders never fail because of talent; when they flame out, it's either due to injury or work ethic/personality. The Pats simply don't pick anyone whose personality and work ethic are even remotely questionable. They'd rather take the 'inferior' talent if necessary, as they did when they traded down and still 'reached' for Mayo rather than staying put and taking Gholston or Keith Rivers (who I think will be awesome, but the point stands). And whatever injury risk there is for a 23 year old kid coming out of college, the risk will be greater for a 31 year old Seymour, who will have 10 years of getting double-teamed in the trenches on him.

Basically, when the Pats pick in the first round, you're getting anything from a solid starter (Maroney, Watson) to a pro bowler (Warren, Wilfork, Meriweather, etc) to a potential Hall of Famer (Seymour). That's pretty much the range, and the only wildcard is injury.

This is precisely the reason why practically every Patriots fan here is discussing the loss of Vrabel, Harrison and Bruschi with Meat.

We all know that Seymour will be a very big loss.