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"8th circuit grants NFL's motion for stay on appeal"


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Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Gene Upshaw may have caved too much to the owners over the years, but he always had a great relation with Tagliabue and was able to negotiate key issues. If he was alive today, I doubt this would get to this point that we are at because he wouldn't have spent the last year trashing the owners and avoiding negotiations.


According to the pro owner side here Upshaw forced Jon Kraft at gunpoint to write a deal that screwed the owners even though they are getting record deals and making record profits. They won't support that with facts but that is the claim. Jon Kraft must be the dumbest Harvard MBA in history to write a deal that is bad for people making record money. Amazing he got all those other incredible businessmen to go along with it, Upshaw outsmarted all of them, go figure?
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

According to the pro owner side here Upshaw forced Jon Kraft at gunpoint to write a deal that screwed the owners even though they are getting record deals and making record profits. They won't support that with facts but that is the claim. Jon Kraft must be the dumbest Harvard MBA in history to write a deal that is bad for people making record money. Amazing he got all those other incredible businessmen to go along with it, Upshaw outsmarted all of them, go figure?

That negotiation never got contenscious. The owners just caved because of the football year had ended and they didn't want a work stoppage. They signed a deal before they really understood what was in it (surprisingly only Ralph Wilson had the foresight to realize it was stupid to sign a deal without understanding all the ramifications of it). Tagliabue also pushed for a resolution because he wanted a deal in place before he retired for his legacy (unfortunately for him, this CBA actually tarnished his legacy).

Upshaw did get the best of the owners in that deal and is a perfect example of how firm, but cordial negotiations can get you what you want. Upshaw didn't trash the owners in public. He never really made doomsday threats. He got exactly what he wanted.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Personally, I don't know if Smith's intentions are bad in terms of what he is getting for his clients. He is not billing anyone on an hourly basis so that isn't the reason. I just think he is illsuited for the job he was hired for.

It was stupid for the players to hire a person with very little negotiation experience outside of court settlements and zero labor experience to run the labor relations for the NFLPA. Labor negotiations is about bringing the other side to your way of thinking, not alieniating them and demonizing them. Smith doesn't get that.

He may be a bad hire and the wrong man for the job but make no mistake, this is not a case of a guy who got elected by the players saying one thing and is now doing another. He is doing everything he has always said he was going to.

This was the first real setback for the plan he enacted. The issue he has is it is a huge setback. It likely means he either has to make a deal or his players are going to miss real out on real paychecks and real $.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

He may be a bad hire and the wrong man for the job but make no mistake, this is not a case of a guy who got elected by the players saying one thing and is now doing another. He is doing everything he has always said he was going to.

This was the first real setback for the plan he enacted. The issue he has is it is a huge setback. It likely means he either has to make a deal or his players are going to miss real out on real paychecks and real $.

The NFLPA picked smith because he's a fighter but their basic mistake is that when the dust clears you need someone who can make a deal and sell it to the union and Smith isn't that guy; he's a fighter not a dealmaker and he's handicapped his ability to make a deal by (a) pissing off the owners and (b) telling the players that the deal offered in march was the worst deal ever-thus making it hard for him to sell anything that isn't much better than that deal.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

That negotiation never got contenscious. The owners just caved because of the football year had ended and they didn't want a work stoppage. They signed a deal before they really understood what was in it (surprisingly only Ralph Wilson had the foresight to realize it was stupid to sign a deal without understanding all the ramifications of it). Tagliabue also pushed for a resolution because he wanted a deal in place before he retired for his legacy (unfortunately for him, this CBA actually tarnished his legacy).

Upshaw did get the best of the owners in that deal and is a perfect example of how firm, but cordial negotiations can get you what you want. Upshaw didn't trash the owners in public. He never really made doomsday threats. He got exactly what he wanted.



C'mon Robo. I can agree that Ralph Wilson didn't understand the deal but the argument that the owners as a whole didn't understand what was in a deal they were making involving billions and billions of dollars doesn't hold water. You honestly believe that the owners didn't know what they were doing? I don't. I believe the problem has always been between the owners and big and small markets, and that what has happened here is that the owners, after signing the last deal, realized they could build up financial security the players could never match and then opt out to crush them as a union and reap huge rewards in future TV deals that the players wouldn't share in.

Firm and cordial negotiations could have accomplished a new deal while operating under the 2010 rules and continuing to talk, but the owners refused that. Why? Because a fair deal was never what thre owners wanted, huge profits the players wouldn't share was, and the only way to accomplish that is by locking the players out, getting the players to crumble as a group, and forcing a deal they don't want down their throats, which is what is going on here.

I'm all for negotiations and a fair deal that benefits all, and have outlined one that involves mostly player concessions in another post, and I am completely opposed to the players allowing their counsel to destroy the structure of the game as it is and have said so repeatedly, but i think anyone who thinks the owners are conducting themselves fairly or decently is really kidding themselves.


I do agree that D. Smith is not looking out for the players best interests and may well be more interested in agent interests, and would rather see someone who cares about the game and players interests leading the players, but Upshaw is dead and the players have yet to remove Smith, which may be necessary to get a good deal done.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

The NFLPA picked smith because he's a fighter but their basic mistake is that when the dust clears you need someone who can make a deal and sell it to the union and Smith isn't that guy; he's a fighter not a dealmaker and he's handicapped his ability to make a deal by (a) pissing off the owners and (b) telling the players that the deal offered in march was the worst deal ever-thus making it hard for him to sell anything that isn't much better than that deal.


I agree. WEEI actually has the opportunity to have Matt Light discuss in detail why that offer was a bad one but has never followed up on it, which is par for the course with Ordway, who has the attention span of a one year old. I would love to see them get Jon Kraft and Light on at the same time to debate the actual merits of the negotiations but don't believe Ordway has what it takes to do a decent interview, although Holley may.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I agree. WEEI actually has the opportunity to have Matt Light discuss in detail why that offer was a bad one but has never followed up on it, which is par for the course with Ordway, who has the attention span of a one year old. I would love to see them get Jon Kraft and Light on at the same time to debate the actual merits of the negotiations but don't believe Ordway has what it takes to do a decent interview, although Holley may.

It might have been a bad deal at the time, but the leverage has shifted to the owners-in March nobody knew if they were going to be able to impose a lockout into the season but now it looks like they almost certainly can. Things change and bad deals become good deals (and vice versa), so you should never paint yourself into a corner about how awful a particular deal is.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

It might have been a bad deal at the time, but the leverage has shifted to the owners-in March nobody knew if they were going to be able to impose a lockout into the season but now it looks like they almost certainly can. Things change and bad deals become good deals (and vice versa), so you should never paint yourself into a corner about how awful a particular deal is.


A good deal is one that benefits all fairly and maintains the overall structure of the game, unfortunately neither the owners or D. Smith are interested in such a deal, preferring brinkmanship and nuclear options over reason and common ground. While i have always been disgusted by the owners behavior i have grown increasingly disgusted in D. Smith's and believe neither he or the owners care enough about the game to conduct themselves decently.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

C'mon Robo. I can agree that Ralph Wilson didn't understand the deal but the argument that the owners as a whole didn't understand what was in a deal they were making involving billions and billions of dollars doesn't hold water. You honestly believe that the owners didn't know what they were doing? I don't. I believe the problem has always been between the owners and big and small markets, and that what has happened here is that the owners, after signing the last deal, realized they could build up financial security the players could never match and then opt out to crush them as a union and reap huge rewards in future TV deals that the players wouldn't share in.

Firm and cordial negotiations could have accomplished a new deal while operating under the 2010 rules and continuing to talk, but the owners refused that. Why? Because a fair deal was never what thre owners wanted, huge profits the players wouldn't share was, and the only way to accomplish that is by locking the players out, getting the players to crumble as a group, and forcing a deal they don't want down their throats, which is what is going on here.

I'm all for negotiations and a fair deal that benefits all, and have outlined one that involves mostly player concessions in another post, and I am completely opposed to the players allowing their counsel to destroy the structure of the game as it is and have said so repeatedly, but i think anyone who thinks the owners are conducting themselves fairly or decently is really kidding themselves.


I do agree that D. Smith is not looking out for the players best interests and may well be more interested in agent interests, and would rather see someone who cares about the game and players interests leading the players, but Upshaw is dead and the players have yet to remove Smith, which may be necessary to get a good deal done.

I absolutely believe the owners didn't know what they were doing. That is why they put in the optout clause after 4 years because they didn't want to get locked into a deal long term that ended up being bad for them. They agreed to this deal in a matter of a few day's time and they didn't have time to grasp the full impact of the deal. If Congress could pass thousands of page healthcare bill which they positioned that they needed to pass it so they could read it and find out what's in it, why couldn't the owners agree to a CBA that they didn't know what it really would impact.

C'mon, the owners want a fair deal as much as the players want it, possibly more. The caveot is that both sides wanted a fair deal as long as it benefitted their side. As for negotiations, the only negotiations Smith ever wanted was the negotiations that are conducted in a courtroom in front of a judge. He isn't a labor negotiator. He is a trial lawyer. Nothing he has done since this process has started really indicated that he wanted to negotiate in good faith. From day one, he trashed the owners and helped set forth the "litigate over negotiate philosophy". Don't throw this all on the owners.

I never said the owners are innocent victims in this or that they didn't have their own agenda. I am just saying it is clear that the players' side always intended to litigate over negotiate. Why hire a trial lawyer with no labor relations experience if you ever intended to negotiate over litigate. Smith has no experience negotiating labor deals, but he has a lot of court room experience.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

A good deal is one that benefits all fairly and maintains the overall structure of the game, unfortunately neither the owners or D. Smith are interested in such a deal, preferring brinkmanship and nuclear options over reason and common ground. While i have always been disgusted by the owners behavior i have grown increasingly disgusted in D. Smith's and believe neither he or the owners care enough about the game to conduct themselves decently.

No, a good deal is one that maximizes the money your side gets over time given the circumstances when you make the deal.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

A good deal is one that benefits all fairly and maintains the overall structure of the game, unfortunately neither the owners or D. Smith are interested in such a deal, preferring brinkmanship and nuclear options over reason and common ground. While i have always been disgusted by the owners behavior i have grown increasingly disgusted in D. Smith's and believe neither he or the owners care enough about the game to conduct themselves decently.

Do you remember the last tine the NFL went on strike? Replacement players, Dougie crossing the picket lines, LT breaking the back of the union by crossing, whole teams crossing en mass. This is what will happen again if the owners and players don't find a way to get along. I am a owners guy, I believe that the union wants to baseballify the NFL, and that should be stopped at any cost. However, it doesn't mean that both sides have to act like ***holes.

D Smith had this planned from the beginning, he rolled the dice and he has lost maybe the biggest gamble of his professional career. Doty may award damages in the TV contract thing, but that will be appealed to the 8th circuit, and that decision can be strung out for months. If this ruling forces the two sides back to the table then it was a good thing. I jave no horse in this race, just the desire to see football stay the same.



35 More Players Cross Picket Lines
By GERALD ESKENAZI
Published: October 08, 1987

Thirty-five more players - including some of the National Football League's top performers - broke ranks with striking teammates yesterday to rejoin their clubs in time to play this weekend's games.

While those players were returning, a five-hour negotiating session in Virginia, between Jack Donlan of the Management Council and Gene Upshaw of the Players Association made progress, according to Upshaw.

Although the sides decided to resume talking this morning, there was no indication that the strike, which has resulted in the cancellation of one football weekend and the creation of a new term - replacement players -could be settled in time to field regular teams this weekend.

Thus, it appears management will go ahead for a second straight week with its replacement teams. Last week, about 300,000 tickets were returned. More Than 1,400 Still Striking

While the number of players who rejoined their teams swelled to 145, that still left more than 1,400 players on strike. And many of those who have returned are on injured reserve - they are unable to play but get paid a salary only if they receive treatment at their clubs' training complex.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Robo, Ralph Wilson said he didn't understand the deal at that time, he wasn't prescient, and there is simply no way that a group of businessmen who are making a deal for billions didn't understand it. Beyond that the argument is that Jon Kraft, who wrote the deal, also didn't know what he was doing and created a deal that was bad for ownership, which again is beyond any reasonable belief. Record attendance, record ratings, record TV deals, merchandise sales, and new revenue streams all indicate that the tow sides were doing just fine, and no lockout was needed.

Ownership was clearly looking for a lockout, not a fair deal, as the purpose of a lockout is to get the players to fold and not to get a fair deal done. If they wanted to continue talking the offer was on the table when the players aid they would continue to talk under 2010 rules, which the owners refused, opting instead to lockout.

I don't like D. Smith and don't want him as their rep but i understand why players looking at being locked out of work would take a labor lawyer as their rep. The owners forced the players to form a union to maintain the CBA, or they would opt out of it. Now the owners do opt out of the CBA but expect the players to maintain a union forced upon them to maintain the dead CBA so they can prevent them from working. That's simply not right.


If the owners are serious about making a deal this is their opportunity, just as it would have been had the players won. If the owners are serious about making a deal then this is their chance, if they continue to offer bad deals and then lose the appeal then their reps are going to use the owners behavior to argue for going for an unfettered free market system over a CBA.


I have argued before that had the players won they should do what is right over going for a complete victory and feel the same here, the owners have a chance to get serious, we will see if they choose to do so or go for the complete crushing.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Do you remember the last tine the NFL went on strike? Replacement players, Dougie crossing the picket lines, LT breaking the back of the union by crossing, whole teams crossing en mass. This is what will happen again if the owners and players don't find a way to get along. I am a owners guy, I believe that the union wants to baseballify the NFL, and that should be stopped at any cost. However, it doesn't mean that both sides have to act like ***holes.

D Smith had this planned from the beginning, he rolled the dice and he has lost maybe the biggest gamble of his professional career. Doty may award damages in the TV contract thing, but that will be appealed to the 8th circuit, and that decision can be strung out for months. If this ruling forces the two sides back to the table then it was a good thing. I jave no horse in this race, just the desire to see football stay the same.


I'm impartial.



Just kidding. I basically agree but would distinguish between the players and their reps. the players reps want unfettered free agency and no rules but i have never heard any player say they are for that, and in fact heard Jason Babin saying pretty much the same on the NFL network last week.


Like you i really don't care about the details of any deal and want the structure to stay intact, so the bottom line is that we both want football back and on time. I see this ruling as a big setback to that but those supporting the owners would have said the same had it gone the other way, the only way to find out who is right is see what happens, hopefully it gets done as i would rather be wrong and have football than right and not have it.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Robo, Ralph Wilson said he didn't understand the deal at that time, he wasn't prescient, and there is simply no way that a group of businessmen who are making a deal for billions didn't understand it. Beyond that the argument is that Jon Kraft, who wrote the deal, also didn't know what he was doing and created a deal that was bad for ownership, which again is beyond any reasonable belief. Record attendance, record ratings, record TV deals, merchandise sales, and new revenue streams all indicate that the tow sides were doing just fine, and no lockout was needed.

They signed a deal to keep playing, they were pretty sure it wouldnt work going forward but would be ok for 3-4 years, hence the opt out clause.When running a big business you have to project into the future, they were all pretty sure the economic environment would change making the current deal unworkable in a few years but they knew it would work for a while and they could buy time by playing and then opt out. Everyone and his brother knew they would opt out and rework a new deal. I think the last 2-3 years could have been better spent with both sides working on the framework for a new deal that would work for everyone instead of this *****-show we have now.
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

They signed a deal to keep playing, they were pretty sure it wouldnt work going forward but would be ok for 3-4 years, hence the opt out clause.When running a big business you have to project into the future, they were all pretty sure the economic environment would change making the current deal unworkable in a few years but they knew it would work for a while and they could buy time by playing and then opt out. Everyone and his brother knew they would opt out and rework a new deal. I think the last 2-3 years could have been better spent with both sides working on the framework for a new deal that would work for everyone instead of this *****-show we have now.


Imo there is a very simple resolution to this, both sides agree to operate under the owner friendly rules of 2010 until a deal gets done.

Oh yeah, and both Pash and Smith get fired as part of the deal.
 
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Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

According to the pro owner side here Upshaw forced Jon Kraft at gunpoint to write a deal that screwed the owners even though they are getting record deals and making record profits. They won't support that with facts but that is the claim. Jon Kraft must be the dumbest Harvard MBA in history to write a deal that is bad for people making record money. Amazing he got all those other incredible businessmen to go along with it, Upshaw outsmarted all of them, go figure?

A tangent I know, but having worked with many Harvard MBAs, I can say I was not impressed.

There have been many posts here explaining in detail the exigent circumstances the owners (self-inflicted) found themselves in @ the time of the last panic driven CBA agreement. That said, I'm not overly impressed by Bob's Harvard MBA son either.
 
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Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I guess people are going to see conpiracies… Also a dissent exactly means it is a close call.

First off, dissent can follow a close call on the merits or it can occur by a misapplication (or misinterpretation) of the law. So, a 2-1 decision can be close - by the numbers only - and not by the basis of the legal arguments presented or the applied law.


No conspiracy here, just people noting a change in how some in the judiciary have approached their jobs. Does the law, as others have said, not clearly state that the courts can not step into a dispute that arises out of a labor negotiation? Did Nelson really not know what awaited her decision? Did she not care? Why? Which court was following the Written Law?
 
Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

The owners forced the players to form a union or the CBA would be dissolved, and are now forcing them to stay in a union they have dissolved so they can deny them the right to work.

This is news to me; I didn't know that the owners forced the players to form a union. Could it be that in this free country of ours the players actually chose to form a union because they determined it was in their best interests?

As far as forcing the players to stay in a union, the union committed in their labor negotiations in 2006 to not decertify until after their agreement expired. Then they decertified anyway (before the deadline). I haven't heard anyone claiming that the union couldn't decertify a few hours after they actually did (i.e. after their agreement expired). Perhaps you know something I don't.
 
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Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Imo there is a very simple resolution to this, both sides agree to operate under the owner friendly rules of 2010 until a deal gets done.

Actually, I think the owners may be willing to operate under the pre-2006 agreement. Do you think the players will go along?
 
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