"8th circuit grants NFL's motion for stay on appeal"

[Triumph]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

The details of the NFL's last offer at noon on the final day of the extension have been made public.

The NFL proposed a new deal yesterday.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

The NFL proposed a new deal yesterday.

Ahh, then I should not have used the term "last" deal. Either way, the contents of the deal I am refering to show the real picture, but so many just glossed it over and listened to the rhetoric.

 

[Mark Morse]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Hopefully both sides sit down now and hammer something workable out. There is plenty of money out there for everybody. I think that the owners have to keep the salary cap, the franchise tag, the draft, a rookie salary scale, and 4-6 years before unrestricted free agency. I have no idea about the finances, but I'm guessing the 50-50 split that they are using now is unacceptable to the owners maybe a 55-45 revenue split would make then happy. If I were a player, I would agree to the above IF they gave the players: *guaranteed contracts like every other major league sport has. This will lessen the amount of forced salary cuts and salary dumps that the teams make now.
*Some sort of retirement health insurance plan/pension plan.
*Agree to the 18 game schedule IF and only IF they add 5 more players to the Active/gameday rosters. (and of course, increase everyone's current contracts by 2/16 of their current pay).

I Like your suggestions for settling this labor strife. My only disagreements are the 18 game schedule (players don't want it for health reasons) which the players can bargain if they give in to the other owner demands. The money saved from the rookie salary cap goes to retired players rather than owners pockets.

 

[SteveBsFan]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Lotsa peeps are falling for the propoganda spewed by the NFL. If they took a tenth of the time they spend posting and actually looked at the last offer from the NFL, they would understand what is going on. It is no wonder scammers and cons are so successful in this country.

Shrug, I don't think the players should have accepted the final deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a solid offer that they could have worked with. It takes two to negotiate, but the players rushed to de-certify because they felt they could win in the courts.

I'm very angry at both sides for dragging their heels until the last few weeks of the deadline to even begin serious talks, but the fact remains at crunch time, it does appear only one side became serious about getting it done.

You even said yourself, "the last offer from the NFL" but didn't mention "the last counter-offer from the NFLPA" because there was none.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Shrug, I don't think the players should have accepted the final deal, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a solid offer that they could have worked with. It takes two to negotiate, but the players rushed to de-certify because they felt they could win in the courts.

I'm very angry at both sides for dragging their heels until the last few weeks of the deadline to even begin serious talks, but the fact remains at crunch time, it does appear only one side became serious about getting it done.

You even said yourself, "the last offer from the NFL" but didn't mention "the last counter-offer from the NFLPA" because there was none.

If you do more than just scrape the surface of that deal, you'd realize the offer was nothing more than an insult.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Judges getting reversed all the time is not the ideal (and, though I don't have data to prove it, is probably a fairly recent, say post 1970, phenomenon). It is fairly clear, even if one chooses to ignore it, that this practice is symptomatic of a big problem in our democracy. Either law makers are writing crappy, indecipherable laws - or something more nefarious is transpiring. I wouldn't be so cavalier about chalking it up to business a usual, nothing to see here, move on....

???

I guess people are going to see conpiracies. The supreme Court has always reversed more cases than it affirms. Some or most of the most significant decisions in our nation's history, starting with Marbury v. Madison, were reversals. Like it or not, you live in a common law nation. Reversals have been a crucial feature of the common law system since the 12th century.

Also a dissent exactly means it is a close call. Four judges have looked at this and disagree about the meaning of Supreme Court precedent 2-2. It isnt clear. Some of the statutes at issue were written in the 1930s. That is why we have courts -- to apply them to new situations that may not have been envisioned.

 

[SteveBsFan]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

If you do more than just scrape the surface of that deal, you'd realize the offer was nothing more than an insult.

I never understood the term 'insult' in contract negotiations. Those who use that term either have very thin skin or don't really understand what the word really means.

You sound like one of those players who get 'insulted' by being offered $7million a year opposed to $10million a year.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I Like your suggestions for settling this labor strife. My only disagreements are the 18 game schedule (players don't want it for health reasons) which the players can bargain if they give in to the other owner demands. The money saved from the rookie salary cap goes to retired players rather than owners pockets.

The rookie money saved was NEVER going in the owners pockets. Owners proposed it be split equally between retired players and veteran players. The union wanted half of it to go right back to rookies (and their agents of course) who performed well - along with drastically reduced contract years to UFA and their second (veteran) deal. They wanted the other half split between veterans and retirees.

Free Ted should know better than to propose guaranteed contracts for this league. It would bankrupt it. The difference between it and other leagues is the level of sustained physical violence and the size and depth of rosters - some teams employ upwards of 80 players over the course of a season... Signing bonus and guaranteed money was intended to provide a level of guarantee the league could live with over the life of a contract. It paid players a portion of their total contract value up front, at first in the 20% range but over time that has grown to 30-50% - and either implicitly or directly guaranteed them a certain level of compensation whether they incurred injuries or lost skill. The majority of players should have been banking that money as a hedge against their post career circumstances (kind of like the waythe league amortizes it over the life of a contract) rather than blowing it on bling and worse...

And they have post career health and retirement benefits. The level was tied to the willingness or unwillingness of their "union" to trade cash now or % for post career security. Lots of former players went on record bemoaning the union's shortsightedness over the last two or three decades to no avail. For this union it's always been about the here and now, the % split and FA. 60% of total revenue had been this unions % goal since Gene first took office...over 25 years ago.

 

[TheSolderKing]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

she must have received nice bribe $$$ for this ruling

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I'm beginning to think DeMaurice Smith is one of the biggest problems with why we are here. From day one, he has shown he is not a labor negotiator choosing to make the owners the enemy and demonfy them at every chance with blatant lies and exaggerations (like saying the owners' offer in March was the worst deal in sports history).

Here is his latest comments after the court ruling on the stay:

“It’s a disappointment obviously that as far as we can tell this is the first sports league in history who sued to not plays its game,” Smith told reporters after Monday’s ruling. “Congratulations.”

Even in defeat, De Smith rolls out the rhetoric | ProFootballTalk

There are two problems with that statement. First, the owners didn't sue for anything. They appealed a decision on a stay of the lockout in a lawsuit brought on by Smith and the players. The league also didn't fight to not play games..... at least not yet.

The owners are showing signs of trying to work towards a deal while Smith still tries to alienate and throw accusations around. In fairness, the owners are willing to negotiate now because they currently have the leverage. They might not be so willing to negotiate if the judges didn't grant the stay of injuction of the lockout.

I still think Smith's lack of labor experience has shown through all of this. A good labor negotiator does not try to burn bridges no matter how bad things get. An adversarial relationship is never good to getting a deal done which I wonder if Smith even wants that. Even if you choose to dial up the rhetoric, you have to know when to dial it back and right now is the time since the owners are very publically trying to at least appear to negotiate while Smith is attacking. With the unity of the players likely to get shakey as the lockout continues, the last thing Smith needs is to villify the players' side and potentially have the rank and file start to question his leadership where the owners appear ready to negotiate and Smith is just making waves.

 

[SteveBsFan]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I'm beginning to think DeMaurice Smith is one of the biggest problems with why we are here.

I agree with this. Before the player supporters get all worked up, this isn't an attack on the players union as a whole. Smith has said some ridiculous things throughout this process, and it's very clear he's simply acting like a lawyer and not someone who is representing a players union trying to get a deal done. He doesn't give a damn about the players, why should he?

This is just another case to him, and like all "great" lawyers, he's finding ways to extend it as long as possible to soak up as much money from it before they're done with him. I'm frankly tired of hearing comments from him, and I'd much rather an intelligent former player represent the players than some scumbag lawyer.

Give him the boot and let's get a new CBA done, this is getting to the ridiculous stage now.

 

[McCourty Island]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

The rookie money saved was NEVER going in the owners pockets. Owners proposed it be split equally between retired players and veteran players. The union wanted half of it to go right back to rookies (and their agents of course) who performed well - along with drastically reduced contract years to UFA and their second (veteran) deal. They wanted the other half split between veterans and retirees.

This is semantics though and seems like a disingenuous argument, if the owners propose to give the money back to veteran players while simultaneously reducing total team salaries then the money never actually reaches the veteran players and just goes back to the owners.

 

[McCourty Island]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

This is just another case to him, and like all "great" lawyers, he's finding ways to extend it as long as possible to soak up as much money from it before they're done with him. I'm frankly tired of hearing comments from him, and I'd much rather an intelligent former player represent the players than some scumbag lawyer.

Do you think he gets paid by the hour from the players?

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

This is semantics though and seems like a disingenuous argument, if the owners propose to give the money back to veteran players while simultaneously reducing total team salaries then the money never actually reaches the veteran players and just goes back to the owners.

not sure I follow your line of reasoning here. Overall team salaries would drop because the total paid would be reduced (by half the total amount of what rookies are currently being paid -- in aggregate which is primarily tied up in first round picks).

the remaining half would go into a fund created to support retired players. thus none would go back to the owners (assuming the NFLPA would have controlling interest of the veteran fund).

Thus if payroll was suppose to be 150 million and rookies tied up 30 million (current format), but would only get 20 million after a rookie wage scale was put in place, then the team would have 5 million more (30 - 20) / 2 to pay their own players and 5 million would be put aside for retired players.

so 150 million would still come out, but only 145 would count to player salaries and 5 would go to retired players.

the numbers above were made up (to highlight the point, not to try and be accurate to existing practices).

 

[townes]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

Townsie, this has NOTHING to do with "workers". This entire court case is a legal abuse of a necessary law being misused for selfish purposes. In other words, lawyers using the "system" to benefit themselves and to some degree their clients....but mostly to build up their egos, reputations, and most importantly...... billable hours. .

BTW- I wouldn't over estimate this "victory" for the owners. If I read it correctly (and who knows if I am), what they are basically saying is that the 8th circuit doesn't think that the Players are currently incurring "irreparable harm", which they are not. It doesn't say ANYTHING about the overall merits (pro or con) about the actual case in play.

IF it gets them back to talking about a workable CBA, instead of a legal case, then it is a ruling well served. However, if it just bruises some egos and causes sides to dig more firmly into their entrenched positions, then it means.....nothing.

On one side I have to believe that the lawyers behind the players expected this ruling, and have plans for it, just as the owners knew that the Nelson ruling wasn't the "last word". So I have doubts that the people running this strategy will suddenly change their goals.

However what I'm hoping for is that the ACTUAL players, like the 500 odd FAs or those not even knowing if they can become FAs. You know the guys who are actually BEING hurt by all of this. I'm hoping that THOSE guys start to pressure the "leadership" to start to take these negotiations seriously. Just as I am hoping that those running the "owners" case, don't take this opportunity to get something done, instead of "going for the jugular."

In other words, is there anyone out there who has the power to please get the "lawyers" out of the room!

ken, rights and precedent extend to everyone, not just those involved in the action, so the decision in this case effects everyone. The owners forced the players to form a union or the CBA would be dissolved, and are now forcing them to stay in a union they have dissolved so they can deny them the right to work.


Von Miller and the rest of the draftees should file suit immediately against the NFL to make them all free agents as they have had "their rights claimed" but are not being offered contracts or the right to actually work.

As much as i love football i am fast reaching the point where I'm actually considering giving it up, greed sucks and the owners of these franchises are as greedy and selfish as a human being can get. Communities that have supported these franchises in every way for decades and decades are going to suffer major financial loss because of owner greed and imo those owners no longer deserve the franchises they hold the rights to. Screw all of them, i think they suck completely.

Apparently billions aren't enough for the billionaires, they need even more, each of the Kraft's grandkids deserves their own private jet, anything short of that simply isn't enough.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

This is semantics though and seems like a disingenuous argument, if the owners propose to give the money back to veteran players while simultaneously reducing total team salaries then the money never actually reaches the veteran players and just goes back to the owners.

No, it doesn't. Who proposed reducing total team salaries? Those can and often do exceed the cap by many millions. You are confusing cap with cash because you don't grasp how it all works. The owners set the cap but also allow teams to manipulate it by spending cash over cap and then amortizing it over time. In fact in their last proposal I believe they proposed raising the cash floor on what all teams HAD to spend (they have never had to spend it all in cap or cash - just spend to the minimum). That benefits players as a whole more than individual cap increases.

And regardless, if they take money (estimated at $200M) from one group (rookies) and distribute it to another (veterans and retirees) that only reduces spending on actual employees by $100M. An insignificant drop in the bucket when divided by 32...only it isn't when it instead becomes a SIGNIFICANT addition to the pre 1993 retirement fund that has been lambasted for years for not even paying enough to keep a roof over the heads of guys who helped build this league... because the NFLPA said they were not it's constituency...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

ken, rights and precedent extend to everyone, not just those involved in the action, so the decision in this case effects everyone. The owners forced the players to form a union or the CBA would be dissolved, and are now forcing them to stay in a union they have dissolved so they can deny them the right to work.


Von Miller and the rest of the draftees should file suit immediately against the NFL to make them all free agents as they have had "their rights claimed" but are not being offered contracts or the right to actually work.

As much as i love football i am fast reaching the point where I'm actually considering giving it up, greed sucks and the owners of these franchises are as greedy and selfish as a human being can get. Communities that have supported these franchises in every way for decades and decades are going to suffer major financial loss because of owner greed and imo those owners no longer deserve the franchises they hold the rights to. Screw all of them, i think they suck completely.

Apparently billions aren't enough for the billionaires, they need even more, each of the Kraft's grandkids deserves their own private jet, anything short of that simply isn't enough.

You know, for you a break might be beneficial. Maybe during it you would develop some rational, remotely balanced perspective.

 

[townes]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

You know, for you a break might be beneficial. Maybe during it you would develop some rational, remotely balanced perspective.

Actually i understand the merits of the case, you simply believe ownership should always prevail because they want more, and have never offered any factual argument for why the owners refused to negotiate under 2010 rules or why they had to opt out. this is and always has been an attempt by owners to break the players and maker a huge money grab and i think that is disgraceful.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I never understood the term 'insult' in contract negotiations.

If that truly is the case, I simply can not help you.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Breaking News: 8th circut court...

I agree with this. Before the player supporters get all worked up, this isn't an attack on the players union as a whole. Smith has said some ridiculous things throughout this process, and it's very clear he's simply acting like a lawyer and not someone who is representing a players union trying to get a deal done. He doesn't give a damn about the players, why should he?

This is just another case to him, and like all "great" lawyers, he's finding ways to extend it as long as possible to soak up as much money from it before they're done with him. I'm frankly tired of hearing comments from him, and I'd much rather an intelligent former player represent the players than some scumbag lawyer.

Give him the boot and let's get a new CBA done, this is getting to the ridiculous stage now.

Personally, I don't know if Smith's intentions are bad in terms of what he is getting for his clients. He is not billing anyone on an hourly basis so that isn't the reason. I just think he is illsuited for the job he was hired for.

It was stupid for the players to hire a person with very little negotiation experience outside of court settlements and zero labor experience to run the labor relations for the NFLPA. Labor negotiations is about bringing the other side to your way of thinking, not alieniating them and demonizing them. Smith doesn't get that.

Gene Upshaw may have caved too much to the owners over the years, but he always had a great relation with Tagliabue and was able to negotiate key issues. If he was alive today, I doubt this would get to this point that we are at because he wouldn't have spent the last year trashing the owners and avoiding negotiations.