6 Linebackers

[Willie55]

As the addage goes, better a year early than a year late.

McGinest was becoming that. We saw it when Colvin came in, but when he got hurt the plan was postponed. Again, in 2005, it appeared Colvin would take the lead over McGinest, but when Bruschi and Johnson went down, Vrabel had to move inside and McGinest was back to full-time outside.

One would have to think either this year or next would be the one where Vrabel and Colvin would finally take over fully at OLB as BB seemingly envisioned, with McGinest seeing time as a pass rusher (a la Colvin in 2004).

I agree with that addage but who would you rather have on this team right now Willie McGinest or Chad Brown?

 

[Nyjetsin06]

The issue is not 3-4. Its more one-gap versus 2-gap. The Steelers play a one-gap and Belichick and disciples play a 2-gap (even when they go 4-3). The one-gap still allows for the penetrating Le beau type player, especially in the LB corps. Belichick's disciplined system is strictly read-control-react.

To play Belichick's system you need big, tough, Defensive linemen, who are good enough that they can play read-react, take a blow, and still play as if they were one gapping. That asks a lot, and consequently we have 4 #1s and 2 #2 and a #4 as our DL for three positions.

As far as the LBs are concerned, Belichick's system is read-react but don't free lance. He can than get away with slower players (ie. bigger, older, experienced, sage, vets preferred) but only if no free lancing is enforced otherwise holes open up and the other players are too slow to be able to close them against a good running game.

Vilma will have problems, I predict. But his talent should allow him to beef up over the next season or two and he'll be fine.

As a backup to Vilma, I am not surprised that Gardner seldom saw the field. How come he got a start? Was Vilma dinged up? And how did he do that game? My theory is that Gardner was just the type of vet that Belichick turns in to a minor star. The profile: A former high pick who does not excel but is smart and willing to work hard as exemplified by ST experience. These guys can play disciplined ball, and carry out their assignment which is drawn up to be not overwhelming athletically, and that is all that BB really needs. Examples are Phifer and Vrabel who were not anywhere as "good" as they became with the Patriots in their late twenties and thirties.

Thanks. I believe Gardner filled in for Barton on the outside in the 4-3. I could be wrong though. Gardner actually played well when he was in the game. Hes more of a fill gap player which Bill seems to get the most out of...

And what you say of Vilma I completely agree with.. I feel this year he may struggle at first. He wont be able to roam around, he will have to take on alot more and shed blockers instead of utilizing his speed. I do expect him to get bigger and maybe lose some quickness, he may not be happy but we will see. And of course ESPN, as clueless as they are to the situation will probably say he lost a step or 2. lol

 

[Nyjetsin06]

The issue is not 3-4. Its more one-gap versus 2-gap. The Steelers play a one-gap and Belichick and disciples play a 2-gap (even when they go 4-3). The one-gap still allows for the penetrating Le beau type player, especially in the LB corps. Belichick's disciplined system is strictly read-control-react.

To play Belichick's system you need big, tough, Defensive linemen, who are good enough that they can play read-react, take a blow, and still play as if they were one gapping. That asks a lot, and consequently we have 4 #1s and 2 #2 and a #4 as our DL for three positions.

As far as the LBs are concerned, Belichick's system is read-react but don't free lance. He can than get away with slower players (ie. bigger, older, experienced, sage, vets preferred) but only if no free lancing is enforced otherwise holes open up and the other players are too slow to be able to close them against a good running game.

Vilma will have problems, I predict. But his talent should allow him to beef up over the next season or two and he'll be fine.

As a backup to Vilma, I am not surprised that Gardner seldom saw the field. How come he got a start? Was Vilma dinged up? And how did he do that game? My theory is that Gardner was just the type of vet that Belichick turns in to a minor star. The profile: A former high pick who does not excel but is smart and willing to work hard as exemplified by ST experience. These guys can play disciplined ball, and carry out their assignment which is drawn up to be not overwhelming athletically, and that is all that BB really needs. Examples are Phifer and Vrabel who were not anywhere as "good" as they became with the Patriots in their late twenties and thirties.

Oh one more thing. Any info on Chatham? I know he ws more of a ST player and backup. But anything else on this guy?

 

[Willie55]

Oh one more thing. Any info on Chatham? I know he ws more of a ST player and backup. But anything else on this guy?

He has a town named after him on Cape Cod.

 

[pats1]

I agree with that addage but who would you rather have on this team right now Willie McGinest or Chad Brown?

The obvious answer is McGinest, but the money makes a difference.

Brown is getting the veteran's minimum without a signing bonus in a 1-year contract. McGinest is getting $6 million guaranteed in a 3-year contract.

 

[Willie55]

The obvious answer is McGinest, but the money makes a difference.

Brown is getting the veteran's minimum without a signing bonus in a 1-year contract. McGinest is getting $6 million guaranteed in a 3-year contract.

Any other year I would agree with you, but the Pats still have in the area of $12 million in cap money left.

 

[BelichickFan]

but the Pats still have in the area of $12 million in cap money left.

I'm not sure they do, once they pick up the Seymour option. He has two BIG payments coming. But if we do have the money there's a bunch of re-signings of young guys I'd take over McGinest at this point.

 

[pats1]

Any other year I would agree with you, but the Pats still have in the area of $12 million in cap money left.

True, but remember there's still a long-term commitment.

Under his contract with the Browns (3 years, $6 million guaranteed - for the purposes of this let's call it all signing bonus):

Scenario 1: Cut him in August of 2006. Pay $2 million in dead money in 2006. Pay $4 million in dead money in 2007.

Scenario 2: Cut him in August of 2007. $2 million plus salary has already been paid. Pay $2 million in dead money in 2007. Pay $2 million in dead money in 2008.

Scenario 3: Cut him in August of 2008. $4 million plus salary has already been paid. Pay him $2 million in dead money in 2008.

Scenario 4: Don't cut him. $2 million in bonus money plus salary paid out each year.

Either way you slice it, there's at least $4 million being paid (counting against the cap) in a year besides 2006. Every year's cap situation is different, so $4 million in dead money in one year could take a big chunk out of the Pats' cap space.

Now, the actual deal probably includes roster bonuses and such that eat up part of that guaranteed money and make the signing bonus smaller, but the general premise is the same.

Also remember that if the Pats re-signed McGinest after cutting him or extended him before the season, they would have paid him/have a cap hit of $1.32 mil. in dead money/existing signing bonus, plus any "new" bonus money just for the 2006 season.

 

[mgteich]

If McGinist was being the equal to Gardner, then of course bb made the right decision. But please note, there is a huge drop off between the 2005 McGinist and what we can reasonably expect from Gardner in 2006. bb may have done the best possible, but the loss is still huge.

As the addage goes, better a year early than a year late.

McGinest was becoming that. We saw it when Colvin came in, but when he got hurt the plan was postponed. Again, in 2005, it appeared Colvin would take the lead over McGinest, but when Bruschi and Johnson went down, Vrabel had to move inside and McGinest was back to full-time outside.

One would have to think either this year or next would be the one where Vrabel and Colvin would finally take over fully at OLB as BB seemingly envisioned, with McGinest seeing time as a pass rusher (a la Colvin in 2004).

 

[AzPatsFan]

Not even close.

Are you saying that McGinest was a spot starting reserve?

That was what the coaching staff publically said they wanted from Willie last year in TC. With the injuries, he played more than that, but it showed too. The game changing plays slowed down to a trickle. Without the four sacks in Jax, playing against a scrub backup fillin, Willie would have had the fewest of his entire career. Willie was slowing down, the coaches suspected it before the begining of last season, and the season confirmed it. What will he do this season is the question, and the more apt comparison.

Manwhile I think that Willie is a HOF candidate...

 

[Willie55]

That was what the coaching staff publically said they wanted from Willie last year in TC. With the injuries, he played more than that, but it showed too. The game changing plays slowed down to a trickle. Without the four sacks in Jax, playing against a scrub backup fillin, Willie would have had the fewest of his entire career. Willie was slowing down, the coaches suspected it before the begining of last season, and the season confirmed it. What will he do this season is the question, and the more apt comparison.

Manwhile I think that Willie is a HOF candidate...

I agree that his playing ability was declining, but he is head and shoulders above Chad Brown (not to mention Willie's leadership).

 

[AzPatsFan]

Oh one more thing. Any info on Chatham? I know he ws more of a ST player and backup. But anything else on this guy?

Matt Chatham was an UDFA and a self made player that BB converted from DE to OLB. He surprised all by becoming a fairly good starter for half a season when injuries struck a few years ago. But despite the size and heart, BB decided he would be a great reserve but not quite what he wanted for a starter. The athletic talent was just not there. Matt felt otherwise and thought he proved himself capable of being a starter. He left to pursue the dream and is in New York.

You have NO WORSE than a prime OLB backup, and a Leadership guy for the Locker room. That's why EM signed him.

And who knows he might prove BB wrong.

 

[AzPatsFan]

If McGinist was being the equal to Gardner, then of course bb made the right decision. But please note, there is a huge drop off between the 2005 McGinist and what we can reasonably expect from Gardner in 2006. bb may have done the best possible, but the loss is still huge.

The comparison is with Chad Brown a former probowler at OLB, not Barry Gardner. Or was that just a mental slip?

I'm not all together certain there IS that much difference between a 2006 Willie McG and a 2006 Chad Brown. There WAS a big difference between a 2005 McG and an BB defense inexperienced 2005 Brown brought in as an OLB backup, and thrust in to an ILB position by TJ's unexpected and forced retirement.

Gardner in 2006, is just a whole lot better than an UDFA and inexpereinced 2005 Alexander at ILB reserve, or undersized but game 2005 Don Davis or Larry Izzo, living on ST reps there. It is even conceivable that Gardner could provide real competition to Besiel but that is not what BB signed him to do, I don't think. The fact that he is already running as the prime 2006 ILB reserve, indicates he is winning the job they signed him for.