4th and Friggin 29

[Fixit]

... even based on that his entire body was stretched forward, and assuming his body is 5 feet tall or more, it isn't clear at all it was a bad spot. Certainly not enough to overturn the call on the field in a drastic way.

Huh?

His knee is clearly down before the 35 yard line. When his knee hit the ground, his entire body wasn't stretched out; his torso was angled up. Even if his whole body was stretched out, it doesn't matter, because the ball wasn't. The ball was against his chest. The distance from my knee to my chest is roughly 2 and 1/2 feet, and I'm 6'3". Ray Rice is 5'8".

It was originally a bad spot because no official was (understandably) in a position to make it. But math says it was a terrible respot.

 

[signbabybrady]

Ravens fan here. Don't want to stir up stuff but if you're open to hearing a different perspective, have a look at where the marker is at the 13 second mark:

[Original] [HD] Ray Rice's Phenomenal 4th & 29 Conversion [Review] - YouTube

The unofficial TV yellow line on the field is further from the line of scrimmage and on the other side of the 34 yard line, but the yard marker on the field is on the line of scrimmage side of the 34 yard line.

And, not only that - the far side marker wasn't the official marker. The official marker is on the side of the field closest to the viewer's perspective, and I don't know about you but I cannot see where that marker is.

I am not saying Rice got the first down. I do think it is not as clear-cut as you suggest.

You know something you are right. And when I was watching live I actually made that concession to the people I was watching with but had forgot about that when I was whinning. But to be clear that doesnt really help your case as while it is tough to tell exactly where the official sticks are it does seem as though the official sticks were passed the 34 and closer to the 33 than than the unofficial before they were moved and then it appears they are reset based on the unofficial. Plus you need to still get past the fact that there is no way one of the shortest backs in the league has a three foot plus torso and his knee is clearly beihnd the 35 and he was fairly upright when his knee went down.

By my obviously biased but trying to just use angles and logic I dont see how the ball was much more than 2 feet passed the 35 and regardless of the sticks the refs placed the ball 4 to 4 and half feet passed the 35.

 

[signbabybrady]

The refs and the NFL aren't asking us to agree to anything. I watched that replay a dozen times too and I don't think the "re-spot" was unreasonable. You saw if differently. I'm not going to change your mind. You're not going to change mine. The bottom line, on which we might actually agree, is that Philip Rivers could have put the game away with one first down and, in typical Rivers fashion, threw up all over himself in a clutch game and clutch situation.

I think there's a difference between commenting on a call with which we disagree and going on and on about something over which we have no control, which is what I felt you were doing.

You're quite correct that nothing any of us writes here has an impact on much of anything, let alone what happens between the lines on Sunday.

I come here to discuss the Patriots, whom I've followed for distressingly close to four decades, and the NFL with like-minded people, many of whom are quite intelligent; sometimes, I just get tired of what comes across to me as whining. I'm sure that's not what was on your mind; it's just how I perceived your post.

Where's the line between "commenting" and "whining?," you might then quite reasonably ask. I have no idea, but I thought your post crossed over it. No big deal, but just what I thought and I said so. You disagree. Ain't free speech great?

I was most certainly whinning but again is this not a forum for such behavior? I dont agree that I was going on and on about it (unless you are referring to my post length) you were responding to my first comment on the subject and I thought I brought one more angle that hadnt been discussed.

 

[i82much]

You know something you are right. And when I was watching live I actually made that concession to the people I was watching with but had forgot about that when I was whinning. But to be clear that doesnt really help your case as while it is tough to tell exactly where the official sticks are it does seem as though the official sticks were passed the 34 and closer to the 33 than than the unofficial before they were moved and then it appears they are reset based on the unofficial. Plus you need to still get past the fact that there is no way one of the shortest backs in the league has a three foot plus torso and his knee is clearly beihnd the 35 and he was fairly upright when his knee went down.

By my obviously biased but trying to just use angles and logic I dont see how the ball was much more than 2 feet passed the 35 and regardless of the sticks the refs placed the ball 4 to 4 and half feet passed the 35.

So wait - the unofficial stick on the far sideline is closer to the line of scrimmage than the 34 yard line, right? But you think the official stick was further from the line of scrimmage than the 34? I don't see why? I can see the top of the near-sideline official stick in the video but it is very hard for me to extrapolate that visual down to a location on the ground that is obscured by the players on the near sideline.

If his knee is down at the 35 and the unofficial stick is correct, I'd say he needs roughly 30 inches past the 35 for the first down. And that is from the tip of the ball, no?

I fully admit to wearing deep purple shades as I write this, but part of me feels like I am actually being reasonable

 

[LiveShot]

The NFL wants certain teams in the playoffs and the officials insure the results. The present full time officials are not much better than the replacements were.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I'd say he needs roughly 30 inches past the 35 for the first down. And that is from the tip of the ball, no?

I'd say more like 33 or 34 inches. The ball is firmly in his chest of a 5'8" person, whose knee was down an inch or two shy of the 35, and he was in no way stretched out horizontally. I don't see how to get a yard of horizontal space between his knees and his chest. There is not a yard of space between the knee and the top of his head, unless he is completely horizontal.

To me the replay shows it more-than-likely that he did not make it. 70%? 80%? 90%? Hard to say, but it isn't 100% conclusive, I'd admit.

 

[Deus Irae]

He needed to get to about the 34. He came up well short.

 

[i82much]

I'd say more like 33 or 34 inches. The ball is firmly in his chest of a 5'8" person, whose knee was down an inch or two shy of the 35, and he was in no way stretched out horizontally. I don't see how to get a yard of horizontal space between his knees and his chest. There is not a yard of space between the knee and the top of his head, unless he is completely horizontal.

To me the replay shows it more-than-likely that he did not make it. 70%? 80%? 90%? Hard to say, but it isn't 100% conclusive, I'd admit.

About 1:29 of here is the closest I can find. Pretty hard to say. It looks to me as if his knee or upper portion of his shin is covering the 35 about when he goes down, and the angle of his hip to upper body has him leaning forward but not at a really pronounced angle.

Ravens vs Chargers week 12 highlights - YouTube

 

[i82much]

He needed to get to about the 34. He came up well short.

Not exactly. *if* the orange marker on the far side of the field is correct, he needed to get *almost* to the 34. I think it is pretty silly to say conclusively he was "far short" unless you have some other evidence?

 

[Deus Irae]

Not exactly. *if* the orange marker on the far side of the field is correct, he needed to get *almost* to the 34. I think it is pretty silly to say conclusively he was "far short" unless you have some other evidence?

Video shows him down on the 35 with only a slight forward lean. He'd be more than half a yard short.

 

[i82much]

Video shows him down on the 35 with only a slight forward lean. He'd be more than half a yard short.

Say the knee is on the 35 and the 1st down is 6 inches from the 34. That's 30 inches from the knee to the first down. You think with a slight forward lean there is no way the front tip of the ball to the knee is 30 inches?

 

[Deus Irae]

Say the knee is on the 35 and the 1st down is 6 inches from the 34. That's 30 inches from the knee to the first down. You think with a slight forward lean there is no way the front tip of the ball to the knee is 30 inches?

Frame by frame at the 54 second mark

Ray Rice 30 yards 4th down conversion - YouTube

 

[i82much]

Frame by frame at the 54 second mark

Ray Rice 30 yards 4th down conversion - YouTube

If you said hey, I think he's about 6 inches short, I'd say that's reasonable. To say he is at least half a yard short is a bit much for me.

I still think it is feasibly 30 inches from his knee to the tip of the ball. And I don't know precisely where the near-side marker is, which is the official marker. Say the official marker is six inches off from the far side marker, what then?

 

[Deus Irae]

If you said hey, I think he's about 6 inches short, I'd say that's reasonable. To say he is at least half a yard short is a bit much for me.

:confused2:

It's what the tape shows. Here's a different shot.

Frame by frame at 20 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3RusKk5ATM

You'll see that his knee touches down short of the 35. Then, look at the "tackler" who's leg is just on the other side of the 35, and look where Rice and the ball are in comparison to that leg.

 

[PatsFan2]

Is that the longest 4th down conversion? if so that the record might never be
broken...thanks Norv.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I'm looking at the last frame at the 1:01 mark, before 1:02 of the above video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGYrEK0Pxwo&feature=related

His knee is down right on the 35 or perhaps an inch short. The ball is in his midsection, no more than 2 feet on his body above his knee. His body is at about a 45 degree angle (I'm being generous.. when the knee first touched the turf he looks more vertical than that).

A quick application of the Pythagorean theorem, with 2 feet being the hypotenuse, tells me he advanced the ball about a 1.4 feet, roughly a half yard, beyond the 35.

By the yellow line it looks almost a yard short. By the far sticks it looks somewhere between a foot and a half yard short. Neither is official though. I have never seen any replay from any angle that indicates he made it.

I'd say that you were fortunate that the official made a bad call, and that (since this was not a "major" game) there was not enough camera angles available for review to correct the incorrect on-field decision.

 

[i82much]

:confused2:

It's what the tape shows.

Well hey - a football is 11 inches. So right there you are about 1 foot past the 35. If the first down is 30 inches from the 35, you've got 19 inches left to account for.

 

[i82much]

I'm looking at the last frame at the 1:01 mark, before 1:02 of the above video Ray Rice 30 yards 4th down conversion - YouTube

His knee is down right on the 35 or perhaps an inch short. The ball is in his midsection, no more than 2 feet on his body above his knee. His body is at about a 45 degree angle (I'm being generous.. when the knee first touched the turf he looks more vertical than that).

A quick application of the Pythagorean theorem, with 2 feet being the hypotenuse, tells me he advanced the ball about a 1.4 feet, roughly a half yard, beyond the 35.

By the yellow line it looks almost a yard short. By the far sticks it looks somewhere between a foot and a half yard short. Neither is official though. I have never seen any replay from any angle that indicates he made it.

I'd say that you were fortunate that the official made a bad call, and that (since this was not a "major" game) there was not enough camera angles available for review to correct the incorrect on-field decision.

Mostly fair but I think the relevant angle is from his knee to the tip of the ball, not the angle of from his knee to head/shoulder/whatever.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well hey - a football is 11 inches. So right there you are about 1 foot past the 35. If the first down is 30 inches from the 35, you've got 19 inches left to account for.

A yard is 36 inches and half a yard is 18 inches. So, using your own numbers, you're trying to argue with me over whether it's over a half yard short when the math using your numbers would have it at over a half yard short.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Well hey - a football is 11 inches.

11 inches long, sure, but as his knee lands, the ball is pointed roughly perpendicular to the turf. He is preparing to extend it out, but after his knee has already touched. He got full credit for that extension, incorrectly.