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4th and 5th Safety


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If BB becomes comfortable with Ebner playing snaps on the field as safety, it'll be all over for the Clueless Three in Barrett, Brown, Ihedigbo. 4 Safeties will be fine. (Chung, Gregory, Wilson, Ebner) It says alot about the clueless 3 when two rookie safeties are outperforming them.
Barrett - useless
Ihedigbo - worthless
Brown - clueless
 
I sure like the sounds of what's being reported on Ebner's very rapid progress. Should this continue then it appears as though great things may be in store for the Pats secondary.
 
The Pats seem to have a decent track record for picking guys in the 6th round who have gr8 intangibles.
 
Barrett - useless
Ihedigbo - worthless
Brown - clueless

If they don't have Ihedigbo to get injured every game, they won't know when to start playing better.
 
I wonder what Ebner's ceiling is.

I'm tempted to say "Ronnie Lott" just to get a response, but the reality is, no one knows. But Mike Vrabel clearly stressed Ebner's upside and potential to BB, and spoke openly about it after the draft.

I'm tempted to say "Ronnie Lott" just on general principles!! :D

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again: this guy could be extraordinary.

Not just a Sub Pack/Reserve/Special Teams guy.

A long time starter and an extraordinary one.

With that freakish Athleticism, that insatiable Work Ethic, and what are rapidly becoming clear are phenomenal Processing Speed and Instincts...I say the sky's the limit for this guy.

Seriously, the fun of a prospect like Ebner is that he really came in with no ceiling, and no floor. Given his proven elite physical and mental makeup and near-total lack of football experience, ANYTHING was possible.

So given the way he seems to be shooting up the safety depth chart despite missing a big chunk of camp, and has, what, four INTs in practice so far...it's hard not to start thinking about the good extremes of "anything," eh?

You said it, Sister!! :rocker:
 
For a guy who was essentially a pure STer last year, Ebner is showing awfully quick development and some nice instincts and awareness to go along with his insane motor and athleticism. Barrett was atrocious last year, and has had trouble staying healthy. Brown was worse than atrocious. Ihedigbo was a decent journeyman safety, but has little upside. I'd be thrilled to stick with those 4 safeties and a CB group of McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Moore and Dennard.
Barrett was "atrocious"? That is just an arbitrary comment. IIRC in the few games he played, he did quite well. The problem being it was once again just a few games.

I agree that I hedigbu is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt. Also your comment on Brown was spot on. I even think your comment on the Pats keeping 4 safeties and 5 CBs. is the way it will end up

But let me make a case for Josh Barrett over everyone's newest favorite binky (which is probably redundant, but its late). Barrett is the only one of the Safeties who has legitimate SS size. There will be times where having a true SS type will be valuable. I love what I'm hear about Ebert, BUT even though he looks like he isn't lost at the safety position, he STILL only played the position 3 snaps in an entire college career.

I really think he would be better served if he started the year on the PS and gets a few thousand looks as a scout team S. He could come back next season with some real-time experience at the position. and ready to compete for a spot in the S rotation.. And who knows, with Barrett's history he could end up being on the roster for most of the season.

You know I love you, Mayo, but I thought your remark on Barrett was a little capricious.
 
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Barrett was "atrocious"? That is just an arbitrary comment. IIRC in the few games he played, he did quite well. The problem being it was once again just a few games.

I agree that I hedigbu is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt. Also your comment on Brown was spot on. I even think your comment on the Pats keeping 4 safeties and 5 CBs. is the way it will end up

But let me make a case for Josh Barrett over everyone's newest favorite binky (which is probably redundant, but its late). Barrett is the only one of the Safeties who has legitimate SS size. There will be times where having a true SS type will be valuable. I love what I'm hear about Ebert, BUT even though he looks like he isn't lost at the safety position, he STILL only played the position 3 snaps in an entire college career.

I really think he would be better served if he started the year on the PS and gets a few thousand looks as a scout team S. He could come back next season with some real-time experience at the position. and ready to compete for a spot in the S rotation.. And who knows, with Barrett's history he could end up being on the roster for most of the season.

You know I love you, Mayo, but I thought your remark on Barrett was a little capricious.

We all know Belichick's liking for Barrett, and you make a good point about needing a real backup for Chung, who has had his share of injury problems.

While we all have grown to like Ebner, it will obviously be up to Belichick to decide if he's football ready and knowledgable enough in our system.

I still think that he may be a PS candidate, but he has certainly increased his odds of making the team lately.

The only problem I have is that I have not heard many things about Barrett in this camp, so that adds even more mystery to the situation.
 
Barrett was "atrocious"? That is just an arbitrary comment. IIRC in the few games he played, he did quite well. The problem being it was once again just a few games.

I agree that I hedigbu is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt. Also your comment on Brown was spot on. I even think your comment on the Pats keeping 4 safeties and 5 CBs. is the way it will end up

But let me make a case for Josh Barrett over everyone's newest favorite binky (which is probably redundant, but its late). Barrett is the only one of the Safeties who has legitimate SS size. There will be times where having a true SS type will be valuable. I love what I'm hear about Ebert, BUT even though he looks like he isn't lost at the safety position, he STILL only played the position 3 snaps in an entire college career.

I really think he would be better served if he started the year on the PS and gets a few thousand looks as a scout team S. He could come back next season with some real-time experience at the position. and ready to compete for a spot in the S rotation.. And who knows, with Barrett's history he could end up being on the roster for most of the season.

You know I love you, Mayo, but I thought your remark on Barrett was a little capricious.

I assure you that Ebert is a WR (and will not be on the safety depth chart) and that Barrett was every bit as bad as Ihedigbo.
 
I agree that Ihedigbo is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt.
Let's not sugar coat the situation, Ihedigbo is not the answer to the New England Patriots defensive secondary woes.

James Ihedigbo, DB for the New England Patriots at NFL.com

12 Games Started
0 Forced Fumbles
0 Interceptions
1 Pass Defensed

It's time to move on from safeties who can only contribute to special teams.
 
not a big 'Dig fan, eh Tip?
 
Barrett was "atrocious"? That is just an arbitrary comment. IIRC in the few games he played, he did quite well. The problem being it was once again just a few games.

I agree that I hedigbu is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt. Also your comment on Brown was spot on. I even think your comment on the Pats keeping 4 safeties and 5 CBs. is the way it will end up

But let me make a case for Josh Barrett over everyone's newest favorite binky (which is probably redundant, but its late). Barrett is the only one of the Safeties who has legitimate SS size. There will be times where having a true SS type will be valuable. I love what I'm hear about Ebert, BUT even though he looks like he isn't lost at the safety position, he STILL only played the position 3 snaps in an entire college career.

I really think he would be better served if he started the year on the PS and gets a few thousand looks as a scout team S. He could come back next season with some real-time experience at the position. and ready to compete for a spot in the S rotation.. And who knows, with Barrett's history he could end up being on the roster for most of the season.

You know I love you, Mayo, but I thought your remark on Barrett was a little capricious.

I am NOT a Barrett fan, as I've made very clear in numerous posts. What I recall seeing of his play last year did not impress me, and I used the "atrocious" word deliberately. He has nice straight line speed but he looks lost in space, and I never saw any signs of instincts or of being in the right place. One of my major desires this year has been to see someone supplant Barrett as the #4 safety - and no, not Brown or Ihedigbo. That's left Ebner or Jeff Tarpinian as a S/LB convert as my two options, and I'll be thrilled if Ebner can progress rapidly enough to take the job. It's only practice reports, but he's shown more awareness, playmaking ability and ball skills in the past 3 weeks than I've seen out of Barrett, Tarpinian, Ihedigbo, Brown and the others in the last 2 years.

As for your argument that Barrett is the only guy who has "legitimate SS size", I off the the following thoughts:

1. I'm not sure what a "legitimate SS" is in the NFL anymore. Sure, it's important to have the size and physicality to play in the box, but we're not talking about a Louis Oliver or John Lynch kind of guy anymore. BB's had 5'11" 206# Tavon Wilson playing a hybrid S/LB role this year, and Wilson was known for his tackling and run support. Being able to play in the box and support the run is a huge asset, but not at the expense of coverage ability.

2. I'm not sure why Ebner can't play as a "legitimate SS" at times. Ebner is somewhere around 6' and 202-210#. Mark Barron is around 6'1" 213#. Pat Chung is around 6'11" 210#. Not a big size difference, and from what I've seen Ebner has plenty of physicality to play SS - from what I've seen he's more physical than Barrett.

As for Ebner spending a year on the PS, some thoughts:

1. Given how quickly he seems to be progressing having really never played the position, will it really take a year before Ebner can contribute? Ebner's shown a lot more awareness and ability to be in the right place than guys like Sergio Brown, who have been playing the position much longer.

2. It's a big risk as to whether he will make it to the PS, or stay there for a season. Is it worth it, especially for guys like Barrett/Brown/Ihedigbo, who are marginal at best? Barrett turns 28 this year, and he has played in all of 5 games in the last 2 years. He's started all of 7 in a 4 year career. And he's been outplayed by Ebner in camp this year, by a fair margin. Do you really expect him to make the jump at this point in his career, much less be able to stay on the field? If the Pats are going to consider risking losing Ebner by trying to sneak him to the PS, I'd rather it be for someone that I have confidence will be an immediate contributor. I don't have that confidence in any of the other guys on the roster bubble right now.

3. IF the Pats are going to risk trying to sneak Ebner to the PS (and I pray they don't try), they are better off doing so after final roster putdowns, when teams are looking to fill out the back end of their rosters. Someone will snap him up. They'll have a better chance during the season, when teams will be looking for immediate help.

You can keep Josh Barrett, my friend.
 
Barrett was "atrocious"? That is just an arbitrary comment. IIRC in the few games he played, he did quite well. The problem being it was once again just a few games.

I agree that I hedigbu is a better special teams player than a safety, though I though he did a yeoman's job last season playing hurt. Also your comment on Brown was spot on. I even think your comment on the Pats keeping 4 safeties and 5 CBs. is the way it will end up

But let me make a case for Josh Barrett over everyone's newest favorite binky (which is probably redundant, but its late). Barrett is the only one of the Safeties who has legitimate SS size. There will be times where having a true SS type will be valuable. I love what I'm hear about Ebert, BUT even though he looks like he isn't lost at the safety position, he STILL only played the position 3 snaps in an entire college career.

I really think he would be better served if he started the year on the PS and gets a few thousand looks as a scout team S. He could come back next season with some real-time experience at the position. and ready to compete for a spot in the S rotation.. And who knows, with Barrett's history he could end up being on the roster for most of the season.

You know I love you, Mayo, but I thought your remark on Barrett was a little capricious.

I am NOT a Barrett fan, as I've made very clear in numerous posts. What I recall seeing of his play last year did not impress me, and I used the "atrocious" word deliberately. He has nice straight line speed but he looks lost in space, and I never saw any signs of instincts or of being in the right place. One of my major desires this year has been to see someone supplant Barrett as the #4 safety - and no, not Brown or Ihedigbo. That's left Ebner or Jeff Tarpinian as a S/LB convert as my two options, and I'll be thrilled if Ebner can progress rapidly enough to take the job. It's only practice reports, but he's shown more awareness, playmaking ability and ball skills in the past 3 weeks than I've seen out of Barrett, Tarpinian, Ihedigbo, Brown and the others in the last 2 years.

As for your argument that Barrett is the only guy who has "legitimate SS size", I off the the following thoughts:

1. I'm not sure what a "legitimate SS" is in the NFL anymore. Sure, it's important to have the size and physicality to play in the box, but we're not talking about a Louis Oliver or John Lynch kind of guy anymore. BB's had 5'11" 206# Tavon Wilson playing a hybrid S/LB role this year, and Wilson was known for his tackling and run support. Being able to play in the box and support the run is a huge asset, but not at the expense of coverage ability.

2. I'm not sure why Ebner can't play as a "legitimate SS" at times. Ebner is somewhere around 6' and 202-210#. Mark Barron is around 6'1" 213#. Pat Chung is around 6'11" 210#. Not a big size difference, and from what I've seen Ebner has plenty of physicality to play SS - from what I've seen he's more physical than Barrett.

As for Ebner spending a year on the PS, some thoughts:

1. Given how quickly he seems to be progressing having really never played the position, will it really take a year before Ebner can contribute? Ebner's shown a lot more awareness and ability to be in the right place than guys like Sergio Brown, who have been playing the position much longer.

2. It's a big risk as to whether he will make it to the PS, or stay there for a season. Is it worth it, especially for guys like Barrett/Brown/Ihedigbo, who are marginal at best? Barrett turns 28 this year, and he has played in all of 5 games in the last 2 years. He's started all of 7 in a 4 year career. And he's been outplayed by Ebner in camp this year, by a fair margin. Do you really expect him to make the jump at this point in his career, much less be able to stay on the field? If the Pats are going to consider risking losing Ebner by trying to sneak him to the PS, I'd rather it be for someone that I have confidence will be an immediate contributor. I don't have that confidence in any of the other guys on the roster bubble right now.

3. IF the Pats are going to risk trying to sneak Ebner to the PS (and I pray they don't try), they are better off doing so after final roster putdowns, when teams are looking to fill out the back end of their rosters. Someone will snap him up. They'll have a better chance during the season, when teams will be looking for immediate help.

You can keep Josh Barrett, my friend.

jester.gif


Enough of your arbitrary, capricious ways, Brother Mayo!!
jester.gif


Brother Ken, tell the truth: You fell behind a couple days in one of those "Word of the Day" calenders, and now you're playing "catch up" with "arbitrary" and "capricious." Fess up!! ;)

I think it's safe to say that Brother Mayo is the least arbitrary or capricious poster around, thank you very much: His words and his opinions are clearly painstakingly researched and carefully chosen.
th_coffee.gif


You're right about one thing, though:

Jeremy Ebert is very inexperienced at Safety. ;)
 
You're right about one thing, though:

Jeremy Ebert is very inexperienced at Safety. ;)

For those espousing the "Nate Ebner is too inexperienced" argument, recall that Julian Edelman played 9.3% of the defensive snap count at CB in 2011 - not far off of Josh Barrett's 16.5%, BTW - and saw significant playing time on defense in the playoffs. Does anyone really think that Bill the Fearless would be afraid to carry an inexperienced guy like Ebner, especially if he can be a stud on special teams while he develops as a safety?
 
9.3%????

WTF is .3% of a snap?

nevermind....I don't really want to know
 
For those espousing the "Nate Ebner is too inexperienced" argument, recall that Julian Edelman played 9.3% of the defensive snap count at CB in 2011 - not far off of Josh Barrett's 16.5%, BTW - and saw significant playing time on defense in the playoffs. Does anyone really think that Bill the Fearless would be afraid to carry an inexperienced guy like Ebner, especially if he can be a stud on special teams while he develops as a safety?

JB missed most of last season w/ injuries - if he had been healthy he would have played a much larger percentage of the teams snaps.

JB was picked up last Aug 6th and wasn't placed onto IR until Aug 31st - so while he was pretty raw looking at first, he looked a good deal better in the later games.

If all the candidates for the expected 5 safety slots are healthy, JB has a good chance of sticking.
 
JB missed most of last season w/ injuries - if he had been healthy he would have played a much larger percentage of the teams snaps.

JB was picked up last Aug 6th and wasn't placed onto IR until Aug 31st - so while he was pretty raw looking at first, he looked a good deal better in the later games.

If all the candidates for the expected 5 safety slots are healthy, JB has a good chance of sticking.

:confused: I don't understand your argument.

Denver cut Barrett on August 6, 2010 due to a shoulder injury, with the plan to put him on IR once he cleared waivers - the same situation as the Giants with Jake Ballard this year. The Pats claimed him, and held on to him until the cut down to 75 players on August 31, the first opportunity at which they could put him on IR without having to have him clear waivers:

New England Patriots claim safety Josh Barrett off waivers from Denver Broncos - ESPN Boston

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Barrett's chances to make the team, or with how Barrett looked in "later games" last year. Barrett missed all of the 2010 season, as expected - the early and the late games, and training camp. In 2011 Barrett started the first 4 games of the season before getting injured, then briefly played in the Giants game week 9 before missing the rest of the season. So I don't understand how you could conclude that "he looked a good deal better in the later games".
 
If all the candidates for the expected 5 safety slots are healthy, JB has a good chance of sticking.

I had Barrett on my roster at the start of camp, but since then...

- Ihedigbo passed Barrett to start playing with the #2 defense in camp;

- Wilson started taking the #1 reps as a situational S/LB hybrid;

- Ebner passed Ihedigbo to start playing with the #2 defense in camp;

- They signed Demps, who could easily make the squad as (to start with) a KR, eating another roster spot and making 5 safeties less likely.

At this point I'd be pretty surprised if he survived cutdown day.
 
I had Barrett on my roster at the start of camp, but since then...

- Ihedigbo passed Barrett to start playing with the #2 defense in camp;

- Wilson started taking the #1 reps as a situational S/LB hybrid;

- Ebner passed Ihedigbo to start playing with the #2 defense in camp;

- They signed Demps, who could easily make the squad as (to start with) a KR, eating another roster spot and making 5 safeties less likely.

At this point I'd be pretty surprised if he survived cutdown day.

This post just about sums it up.
 
Besides the aforementioned 3 of Barrett, who appears to have a clinical allergy to tackling;
Brown, the clueless wonder (though that PI call in Buffalo was bogus, yet avoidable); and Diggy,
he of the glacieresque processing speed - Bill can also throw out Mal Williams, Bubba Junior
& Matty Slater (ask yourselves: exactly of what would his highlight reel consist? One catch?)
before he should consider waiving Ebner with the hope of stashing him to the PS.
 
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